Cowboy builder

[steampowered]

You have done most of the work already ... there will be a lot of copy/pasting it is really just putting it into a format that makes things very clear and ensures you have explained the basis for claiming each item of loss.

Edited June 14, 2013 by steampowered

[kenwood]

Hi Steampowered

Hope you've had a good weekend. Am I on the right track with this? I havent listed all the items on the estimate - just the ones that are relevant.

[steampowered]

Hi,

 

Great weekend thanks. You've done a great job with this, well done. Just a few small points:

 

- paragraph 7 - fill in the square brackets or delete the words "On or around [date]"

- paragraph 11 - tell the judge what the total contract price was

- I note that some of the claims raised in your previous version like the metal pipe, replacing keys and tin of ceiling paint have disappeared. Not sure if this is intentional.

[kenwood]

Thanks again steampowered, looks like I'm on the right track. The other bits needed are the statement of truth at the end and formatting of the top section and back page which I can manage!

[citizenB]

This thread is now in "General Legal Issues"

 

It is purely an administrative move.

[kenwood]

I had a cowboy kitchen fitter in my home last year who conned me out of over £2k for doing very little work. It has taken me a year to get my kitchen sorted out because no other fitter was willing to touch it and it has cost me a further £5k at least.

Anyway, I was planning to take the first guy to court and I have my POC and bundles ready to go. Having done an internet search for this person to find negative feedback, I discovered he has been bailed and due to be going to court as part of a gang who have fleeced elderly people out of £250k. They will also be charged for money laundering.

Now that this information has come to light, I dont know whether I should proceed with my court action. If I go ahead and win my case, is there any way I can become an interested party to the other case or be able to have some form of garnishee order on what, presumably, the courts would aim to recoup?

Is there any way this could work in my favour or would all his cash be taken away by the courts? Also what would happen if I start proceedings and he is imprisoned before the court hearing comes up?

[rebel11]

Hi Kenwood

 

I would be inclined to send a letter to the people who are prosecuting, explain what's happened and what you want to do. That way there will be no surprises.

[kenwood]

It's a criminal prosecution following an extensive investigation by the Economic Crime Unit of the Police in that county. I've been in touch with the metropolitan police, the fraud department of the police, the relevant court and the relevant police force - none of them were interested. My case would be civil so I wanted to check if there is any possibility of crossover. The fraud police told me to speak to Trading Standards and get them to ask the fraud police to follow up but by the time I did this and got back to them again they didnt want to know! I've just been shoved around. It's quite shocking that this type of behaviour is not criminalised until it reaches epic proportions.

[ashmk]

Sounds to me like it will be throwing good money after bad if this is the sort of guy he is. He sounds like a serial fraudster and civil court action makes no difference whatsoever to these types of people. Just because you take someone to court and even if you win it does not mean you will ever see a penny.

[kenwood]

Thanks, this is what I'm thinking too. But assuming I go ahead with the action and win the case and then present him with a stat demand threatening bankruptcy - what would happen?

I was really hoping I could somehow get involved with the other prosecution but the court told me because my incident took place in a different time and place I could not join the other action.

Is there really no way I could somehow sequester from what is recovered from the other action?

[fletch70]

And if you present him with an SD what then. It costs you to have him made BR and odds are he will have lots of other debts or no assets in his name. Just a thought.

[kenwood]

Thanks Fletch - yes its beginning to look that way. Is there absolutely nothing I can do?

I really hope he ends up in jail - its the best place for him.

[ashmk]

You need to do some research to see if he has any assets in his name. If he has assets then you may be able to use the courts to instruct bailiffs to recover any money owed.

 

If he has nothing in his name you are unlikely to ever see a penny. I doubt a SD or being made BR would bother them if as you say they are a criminal and lives by defrauding people.

 

Find assets first then sue.

[steampowered]

I don't think there is any way to get involved with the other action. Criminal proceedings and civil actions are treated differently. You'd need to get a CCJ and then take your own enforcement action I'm afraid.

[rebel11]

The police would of seized all of their assets as 'proceeds of crime'.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proceeds_of_Crime_Act_2002

 

There was a similar case in yorkshire.

 

http://www.itv.com/news/calendar/2014-02-27/four-convicted-of-defrauding-250-000-from-elderly-victims/

 

http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/extra/news-item.cfm/newsid/1427

[kenwood]

Thanks for your advice Ash and Steampowered. I'm sure such a devious person will have his house in his wife's name and his assets in a suitcase under his bed.

Thanks for the info Rebel - I hope the police do manage to seize his assets and the courts put him in jail! However, that means I wouldnt get anything!

[rebel11]

Hi kenwood

 

Normally in criminal cases where money is involved, assets are seized if it is believed that the assets are derived from criminal activity. I'm going by what normally happens. But do some digging, electrol roll, land registry etc, find out for sure.

 

Thanks for your advice Ash and Steampowered. I'm sure such a devious person will have his house in his wife's name and his assets in a suitcase under his bed.

Thanks for the info Rebel - I hope the police do manage to seize his assets and the courts put him in jail! However, that means I wouldnt get anything!

[Jack Jones]

I had real problems with a builder Mark Fittes who not only carried out an horrendous job, his company WeatherAll (NE) also charged me 20% VAT. You can see there work on the badwork.co.uk/ website (North East Section)

Edited September 9, 2014 by Jack Jones

[kenwood]

Hi,

 

I had a disaster with a kitchen fitter and have started court proceedings against him.

 

He put in a Defence with a whole lot of lies.

 

The court sent Directions last September and the hearing date was due in February.

 

I followed the Directions to the letter and sent quite a substantial witness statement with all the emails and evidence I could find to substantiate my claim.

 

I sent the bundle to the cowboy 2nd class recorded delivery therefore the date that it was received has been logged on the PO site.

 

The cowboy has written to the court stating that the bundle arrived 3 days later than it did, ie after the 2 weeks prior to the hearing date!

 

He has asked for the hearing date to be adjourned on the basis that he needs time to address the issues I've raised in my bundle.

 

He's claiming they were not listed in my POC.

 

on top of that, he has a google listing for his "business" and

 

there is bad feedback on it,

 

so I submitted a printout of this in my bundle.

 

Not sure if this is admissible.

 

I just looked at that listing again thinking he must have closed it down,

 

when instead I saw that he has superimposed my name as a life coach with my family address (with whom I do not live)

and a strange telephone number.

 

The odd thing is that the map still shows his address rather than mine and the name of his business.

 

This has really made me angry.

 

I dont understand whether it is a covert threat or a stupid joke.

 

It was suggested to me perhaps he intends to lure customers in my name and defraud them so that he can make trouble for me.

 

I dont know what to do about this.

 

Should I bring it to the attention of the judge?

 

On top of this the guy is connected to a gang who defrauded elderly victims out of over £250k and were put on trial recently.

 

tHe money laundered some of the proceeds and was taken to court and pleaded guilty and is currently serving a 6 months sentence suspended for 2 years.

 

Apparently this information is not admissible because it is unrelated and because it is a criminal matter rather than a civil matter.

 

Please can someone advise me how much of this information is admissible

 

as I feel the judge should be aware.

 

How can I land him in the dirt without overstepping the mark?

[SabreSheep]

I think we would need to see your poc before we can say whether anything is admissable or not.

 

Anything included int he bundle MUST relate to the ISSUES being claimed.

 

As for the request for a extension, by all means appeal that with evidence the material was received on time.

[kenwood]

If I put the bad feedback that I found on the internet relating to this person in my bundle of supporting evidence, is this admissible?

 

 

Also since my claim was for breach of contract and negligence and the Directions have asked for "a list of works complained of"

and I have written about things like the units being crooked,

the shelves being crooked,

drawers not opening properly

but these were not all literally itemised in my POC,

I have said that it was done so badly that it needed to be done again.

 

 

There were so many huge fundamental errors that little details like this are lost believe me.

 

 

The guy failed to noticed some obstructions and I was forced to buy narrower units for another £600,

I had to buy more tiles as he had cut what he did so badly.

I bought £700 worth of panels because they were listed by the guy on his purchase list

but he did not even allow space for those panels in his plan.

The guy was a complete goofball.

 

 

I have to redact my POC of personal details and will try to post it tomorrow as it is already late.

 

 

At this stage I really want to expose the cowboy's lies and this issue with his google page.

Am I allowed to advise the judge that this guy's currently serving a suspended sentence?

[steampowered]

Your evidence doesn't need to be mentioned in the POC.

 

The online feedback would be admissible in small claims; if this is not a small claim then it could be seen as hearsay depending on how it is used and potentially inadmissible unless a hearsay notice has been served.

 

I think everything else you have mentioned in your post is admissible. Mention of criminal proceedings is perfectly fine - although to be honest with you the issue of whether he defrauded elderly people is not particularly relevant to the question of whether he botched your kitchen.

 

You do need to focus on proving what went wrong with the kitchen rather than getting distracted by these tangential issues. Remember that the judge is NOT there to decide whether this person is a nice man or not. He is there to decide whether you have a legal claim against him based on the work he did in your kitchen.

 

What he has done to the google page should be shown to the judge as evidence of unreasonable conduct which could trigger liability for him to pay costs at the litigant in person rate of 18quid per hour for time spent on the case. Bring a schedule of costs to the hearing.

 

How has he asked for the hearing to be adjourned? I would object, even if the bundle did arrive a few days late he presumably had time to review it before the hearing.

[f16]

You need an "Expert Witness" report:

 

This will explain to the Court the failings of the "Clown" that fitted (term used very loosely)

How people get tangled up with "gangsters" like this beats me. ..... But as said above you need to focus on proving what went wrong.

[Ganymede]

You need an "Expert Witness" report:

 

This will explain to the Court the failings of the "Clown" that fitted (term used very loosely)

How people get tangled up with "gangsters" like this beats me. ..... But as said above you need to focus on proving what went wrong.

 

The OP needs the Courts permission for an expert report first though.

[kenwood]

Dear Steampowered

Thank you for your response. I feel so much better. I just called the court and they had not even received the defendant's letter and mentioned that if he wants to adjourn the hearing he needs to pay £50 to do so. It looks like the hearing is going ahead as planned. I wonder if he has just sent the letter to me (and not to the court) in the hope that I wouldnt turn up on the day!

I take your point that the judge doesnt need to decide whether the guy is nice or not! This is something to remember.

I will write to the court about the Google page incident and his misrepresentation of the arrival date of my bundle.

Thank you again for your clear and relevant response.