Unknown PCN and Bailiffs

[brassnecked]

Would not the resealing of the warrant to the new address amount to fraud?

[Hackers]

Thank you tomtubby

 

I did inform Wandsworth Council that I had moved, when I called them following the Bailiffs letter, however I did not give them the exact date just the fact that I had moved prior to the PCN being issued.

 

Regarding the choice of which option to have the N244 dealt with, would it be advantageous to go with the more expensive option and have a local hearing. I think I have the correct understanding that the £80 option would be with my local county court in person where as the £45 option would be in a magistrates court in my abscence.

 

I have noted an earlier post of yours on another thread with guidance on how to fill out the form http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?297144-Help-filling-out-the-N244-Form

Any other advice on how to get this form right would be greatly appreciated.

[Hackers]

I have now submitted my N244 form along with payment for £80, so am now waiting for a court date. Thank you Tomtubby for your help and to others who have posted.

 

I will update, once I have the court date and then of course the outcome.

[pete42]

Guys...

Let me tell you this. If a Bailiff calls or writes or attends telling you they have a warrant for recovery for an unpaid PCN they are lying

The council will apply to Northampton county court bulk centre asking for authorisation to apply a warrant which they will be given...BUT the council will not issue a warrant...FACT. I work for a council....Ask the council or Bailiff for a copy of the warrant...NOT a copy of authorisation to issue one....TRUST ME ON THIS

[lamma]

Often the contracted bailiff company will do this as part of a "full service solution"

[pete42]

wrong...the bailiff cannot... only the council

[lamma]

Many councils in fact do outsource this. The council you work for may not of course.

[Hackers]

Update

 

I have my court date this Friday 12th June - any advice on what to prepare for the Court. I know my case, would just like to know if there are any specifics that I should be aware of when in front of the judge.

[tomtubby]

When you application was "rejected" Wandsworth Council MUST provide you with a copy of the Statement of Truth that was sent to TEC outlining THEIR reason as to why they were refusing to allow you to file the witness statement late. Did you receive this?

 

If no...then you MUST contact TEC immediately and also ask Wandsworth for a copy. I am shocked at the amount of times that I hear that councils fail to provide this document to the respondent.

[Hackers]

Hi Tomtubby - I did receive the statement of truth from Wandswroth Concil, however it did not really provide any reasons for their rejection other than listing the dates that they had sent me the escalating forms to my old address and saying that they had obtained my address from DVLA.

[tomtubby]

When will local authorities realise the CORRECT procedure when responding to Out of Time applications !!

 

Sadly for a very long time Wandsworth Council respond to such applications to provide just a history of the PCN. This is wrong and they should know this.

 

I get so damned angry at the way in which Out of Time Applications are so badly misunderstood.

 

Given your answer in post 35 it would seem that they have failed to abide by section 75.7(7) of the Civil Procedure Rules.

[Surfer01]

Any update on the outcome of the court case?

[Hackers]

Court case is this Friday, I will provide an update after Surfer01

 

tomtubby, once again thank you for sharing your insights into this matter. I do feel that they should have just processed my out of time witness statement rather than reject it as they did and save all involved a lot of time and effort not to mention our courts and tax payers money.

I will be using their lack of adherence to correct procedures as my defence.

[tomtubby]

Good luck tomorrow. Please keep us all upated.

[Hackers]

Court Case Update:

 

Judge has ruled that my out of time witness statement / Stat Dec be accepted and has ordered me to fill out another Stat Dec form by the 31st of July with the reasons provided in my N2444 form and his ruling.

The LA were not present and made no representations.

 

I believe this to mean that the LA will now have to accept my out of time witness statement and the whole process should revert to the beginning giving me the opportunity to pay the original fine.

I hope my understanding of this is correct.

 

I have called the LA to inform them of the ruling and have attempted to reason with them by offering to pay the original fine, thus saving everyone concerned unnecessary waste of resources.

Now waiting for them to get back to me.

 

If it is a no, or I do not hear back I will proceed with filling out the Statutory Declaration form tomorrow.

[tomtubby]

Sadly, the District Judge is WRONG and this demonstrates WHY the Traffic Enforcement Centre need to provide guidance on the role of the District Judge when considering the review.

 

There is NO need to fill out another witness statement. The local court will now send a copy of the judges decision ( which was to allow you to file a witness statement late) and in approx 7-10 days time you will receive a Revoking Order from the Traffic Enforcement Centre. There is no point at all in speaking with Wandsworth as they will have to wait to receive the revoking order from TEC.

 

 

PS: WELL DONE....a successful outcome.

Edited July 12, 2013 by tomtubby

[Hackers]

Thank you to all who have helped me, I have sent a donation to CAG as recognition for the help provided.

 

Following the court case on the 12th of July and tomtubby's post above I contacted the TEC who informed me that I was not required to fill out another form.

On the 18th of July I received from the courts a General Form of Judgment or Order which stated:

 

"IT IS ORDERED THAT

 

Permission granted to Defendant to file a Statutory Declaration out of time to be filed by 31 July 2013"

 

On the 6th of August I received from the TEC the order that the recovery order was revoked and the charge certificate and notice to owner be cancelled along with the note that the original PCN was not cancelled.

 

Wandsworth Council have written a letter to me and this is where it gets interesting. I received their letter on the 3rd of September and yet their letter was dated the 19th of August. The letter informed me that the PCN was not invalidated and enclosed was a new notice to owner.

The Notice to Owner is for £80 and gives me 28 days to pay this rate or it may rise by 50% to £120.. My understanding was that this would revert back to the PCN and that therefore I would have the opportunity to pay £40. Their Notice to Owner states that I was allowed to pay the discounted sum of £40 as shown on the PCN and that it is now too late to pay the discounted amount, all very well if you actually received the PCN in the first place.

 

I find this whole situation rich when I have already paid £80 to my local court to have my case heard due to Wandsworth Council refusing to follow the correct procedures.

I have also seen no proof from them that my car was ever issued with a PCN, I have requested this previously and on May the 13th I received communication stating that I had a ticket displayed but at the time of the PCN being issued it had expired by 6 minutes. There was a link to their photographic evidence with a pin # however I have tried in vain to access these.

 

Given that the 28 days is up tomorrow, I have written to Wandsworth Council with the above information requesting the right to see the evidence that my car was issued with a PCN. To confirm with them that if I had the opportunity to pay the discounted rate of £40 via the PCN, how am i supposed to exercise this right if I did not have the PCN. I will also point out to them that due to their inability or willing to follow the correct procedures on a number of points I was forced into a position of making representation at my local court costing me £80.

 

Any advice on the above or comments welcome.

[Hackers]

Letter sent via email to Wandsworth Council tonight

 

Dear ..... ........

 

I have received your letter dated the 19th of August, I must point out that I only received this letter last week on Tuesday the 3rd of September.

 

Within your letter was enclosed a Notice to Owner giving me 28 days to pay the charge of £80 or make representations.

 

I also noted that within the Notice to Owner it stated that I had been given 14 days to pay a discounted sum ( I assume £40 ) on the Penalty Charge Notice and that it is now too late to pay the discounted amount.

 

Given that I did not recieve the PCN, it is clear that I was not given this opportunity to pay the discounted rate or to make representations at this stage.

 

In May 2013 I contacted Wandsworth Council and spoke to a Jacquie Whaley requesting proof that a PCN had been issued. I received a letter via email on the 13th which gave me a link to follow and pin to access photographic evidence of the alleged contravention. I have tried multiple times to access this evidence but have not been able to.

 

Please could you provide evidence of the PCN and the alleged contravention the letter dated May the 13th stated that my ticket expired at 11:06 and a PCN was issued at 11:12

 

I would also like to point out that I have already paid £80 to have my case heard by my local county court due to your LA not following correct procedures. I refer to CPR 75.7 (7) and under Operational Guidance to Local Authorities: Parking Policy and Enforcement under the Traffic Management Act 2004 section 10.68 and sec 10.69.

 

In my out of time witness statement I listed the valid reasons in that i had not received any of the statutory notices due to them being sent to a previous address. You declined this and then just went on to list all the notices you had sent to my previous address which is not a reason to reject my out of time witness statement. I also highlighted to you that given my address change of late 2011 the local authority are not permitted to amend the warrant and that instead once the correct address had been established a new notice to owner should be served.

 

I would like to see the PCN and evidence of contravention and be given the opportunity to pay the £40 pound fine or appeal. Therefore I make representation on the grounds of A ( depending on evidence shown ) E due to not being given the opportunity to pay the PCN at the discounted rate and F on the procedural impropriety that has cost me £80.

[dementedfeline]

Hackers, can you update us on what happened next please? In a similar situation.

 

thanks

DF

[Hackers]

Hi demented

I will update, so far all I have received is acknowledgement of my email and that all is on hold whilst they deliberate and decide on their response.

[dementedfeline]

Thanks, Hackers. They don't seem to be deliberating very fast, do they?