Responsability over PCN, Owner, Keeper or Driver?

[skegnar]

Hi, I'm trying to resolve this issue with a PCN that has gone to Bailiffs

for parking without a Blue Badge issue,

(because the BB fell from the dashboard) on behalf of my partner

and i would like to know if anyone is able to clarify

 

1- Who has the actual responsibility over this PCN under the law...

Is it the Owner, Keeper or Driver?

 

and

 

2- point me towards the legislation and/or case law that supports this?

 

I am asking this because

 

3- i was wondering if it is still possible

to submit a late TE9 appeal to the court

on the basis that the notice to owner and/or PCN

was never actually served to the owner?

 

4- And has anyone tried this before?

 

 

Thanks in advance for the help.

[DBC]

This should have been posted in the council parking section of this forum.

[ims21]

Thread moved to the correct forum

[Michael Browne]

The RK is liable, who should have been sent the NTO and then the Charge Certificate and then the Order for Recovery.

Were none of these received?.

[skegnar]

the NTO and then the Charge Certificate and then the Order for Recovery.

Were none of these received?.

 

I guess so. she only gave me the Order for Recovery and the Letter sent by the bailiffs,

but i have no reason to think she didn't received the other ones, so i am assuming she got them.

 

basically the problem here is that she apparently ignored this

and now she's asking me to help her out

i think she could have appealed this on the basis that she has a Blue badge

and it was displayed correctly when we left the car,

but must have fallen somehow as it was on the floor of the car when we got back

and the parking ticket was issued...

 

Consequently, i am trying to explore on whether if we could perhaps

get this reverted back to a stage where i can

file an appeal on her behalf about the blue badge

which is what she should have done in the first place...

by submitting the TE9 claiming that the actual owner of this car, which is me,

or the driver at the time (wichever is the ultimately liable one)

never received a Notice to Owner regarding this.

 

The RK is liable,

how about the owner?

 

I phoned the tribunal and they sent me an email

for me to submit a late TE9, so i was wondering

if this is a valid legal option

but i have no idea what is the law and case law regarding this.

 

Is there any possibility we can do that?

and can someone point me to the relevant legislation and case law regarding this

so that i can have a better idea on how to proceed?

Edited May 1, 2013 by skegnar

[Jamberson]

It is not the case that the RK is liable, nor that the owner is liable. The person liable is the person named on the Notice to Owner. If that person is NOT the owner, they can contest liability during the 28 days available to make representations. Once that has passed, they remain liable.

 

Only that person, who I gather is not you, can file a TE9 or engage in the appeals route in any way. The hard fact is, assuming she did get the documents, she remains liable and an after-the-event argument that she is not the legal owner is unlikely to succeed. However if she wants to try and absolve herself from liability, she will need to file the forms, not you.

[skegnar]

thank you for your reply

 

Only that person, who I gather is not you, can file a TE9 or engage in the appeals route in any way.

However if she wants to try and absolve herself from liability, she will need to file the forms, not you.

 

She asked me to help on this, so i am the one doing the research and the work for her

and she will be the one signing and submitting the forms.

 

 

It is not the case that the RK is liable, nor that the owner is liable. The person liable is the person named on the Notice to Owner. If that person is NOT the owner, they can contest liability during the 28 days available to make representations. Once that has passed, they remain liable.(...)

 

The hard fact is, assuming she did get the documents, she remains liable and an after-the-event argument that she is not the legal owner is unlikely to succeed.

 

I fully understand this may be a long shot now... but i wanted to know if this was an actual option,

because at this point i don't see any other option apart from paying £96 to the bailiffs.

 

Yes, I know that at the moment they are considering her to be liable.

What i want is to understand if a RK receiving a PCN/NTO on a car owned or driven by someone else

is able to identify and thus instruct them to pursue the relevant party

thus passing the liability to either the driver or the owner,

whomever is responsible.

 

When i mean responsible i mean who is ultimately responsible according to the law...

I know they send the paperwork to the RK, but using common sense

i presume the RK is not responsible according to the law on parking offenses,

but either the owner or the driver.

So if that is the case i wanted to know which one is responsible.

 

The thing is that there is no registry for Ownership and they always assume the RK is the owner,

hence why they send the NTO to the RK.

 

I presume the RK is only responsible if and only

the RK is actually also the owner and only if the driver is not identified by the RK,

but i have no way to know if this is the case or not because i don't know what is the applicable legislation and case law,

so at the moment this is just a supposition on my part,

hence my request for help on what is the applicable legislation and case law

so that i can have a look.

Edited May 1, 2013 by skegnar

[Michael Browne]

Under the Road Traffic Act 1991 the responsibility for any PCN rests with the owner and the owner is presumed to be the registered keeper of the vehicle as recorded at the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA), since usually these are the same person.

 

I've no idea whether TEC will accept an out of time statement at this late stage

[skegnar]

Thanks

 

Do you know if there is any template or relevant thread

around regarding similar situations

when the RK was not the owner

that i can look into, in order to to get some ideas on what to put on the late TE9

to submit to TEC asap?

[Jamberson]

When you discuss this situation, you make reference to who is "responsible". It's not a question of responsibility - it's a question of liability. Liability for the debt rests with the person named on the bailiff warrant, who in the absence of any action on their part, will be the person named on the NTO.

 

You friend is named on the NTO and, one must assume, on the warrant - and so she is liable for the debt.

 

In terms of challenging it, an out of time statutory declaration is the only way, and that is likely to be rejected anyway, as there is no reason for it being out of time.

 

Sorry, but I do think you're clutching at straws.

 

Try posting on the bailiff section of the forum - you might get a different angle.

[skegnar]

thanks for the help so far

 

i'll gladly clutch at any straws,

since at this stage it is either pay up the £96 to the Bailiffs hoping they won't try any dirty tricks

or go for the long shot.

 

She's saying i have to be the one who pays up the £96 now

because i own the car and i said i would look into it and do a bit of research in order to help her a while ago,

(about 1 week before she got the letter from the bailiffs)

but was too busy with work, so i was unable to actually do it for her

for the last couple of weeks

so she figures i am now responsible for the bailiffs being brought into the situation....

and quite frankly i would prefer to pay up the £96 than to start a stupid money argument with her over this...

 

so its either the long shot TE7/TE9 or cough up the money...

hence why i wanted to know more about this OOT TE7/TE9 submission process...

and the responsibility issue...

Case law... and if there are some examples and/or templates around...

to see if i could put up the best possible defense for her

and increase the likelihood of me not being the one who gets burned at the end of this process...

 

although i have an annoyingly strong feeling

that its what is going to happen...

one way or another...

[sailor sam]

Can we clarify that its your car (you own it) but the RK is someone else? Or was it the fact that your partner is the BB holder and she was using the car at the time the PCN was issued? You already confirm that the BB was not correctly displayed so one way or another, the PCN needed to be dealt with and as such, either you or your partner will have to pay.

 

Can't see what the problem is TBH.

 

Please Note

 

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Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[Jamberson]

There's no case law, really. It's a common situation and crops up countless times.

 

You cannot complete the TE7/TE9 if it is not your debt - and it isn't. She will have to. There is a very important section where she has to explain why the application is out of time and was not dealt with sooner - and the council will accept or reject the application solely based on the strength of that information. So, you can see what is likely to happen - but nothing to stop her going for it.

[skegnar]

the car i indeed mine.

I bought it with my own money years ago,

and i got the seller to sign a document of sale with my name on it, which i still have, to prove it,

as i was not comfortable to give all that money away

without anything written to confirm it was indeed sold to me by that person.

 

she is just the RK, as i bought the car for us both to use it but she loved the car

so she used to drive it around up to a couple of years ago,

but since then it was mostly me who drove it due to her disability.

 

regarding the BB it was correctly displayed when we left the car, but it fell to the floor somehow,

hence why the PCN.

Edited May 2, 2013 by skegnar

[skegnar]

You cannot complete the TE7/TE9 if it is not your debt - and it isn't. She will have to.

 

Yes, you are absolutely right. I apologize if i was either unclear or confusing.

I never intended to submit anything such as e.g. the TE9/TE7 myself, or under my name.

I meant SHE will submit any paperwork under her name. I am doing part of the research on the situation on her behalf though

in order to assist her on deciding on how to proceed.

[skegnar]

just had a word with her over the phone,

looks like a bailiff was there today and apparently has put a paper through the door

saying he has put a levy on MY CAR

for an alleged debt under her name...

 

this is definitively getting me involved now... grrrrr!!!

 

Can you advise on how to proceed... ?

 

any help would be greatly appreciated...

[Jamberson]

My advice would be what you don't want to hear - which is that she should pay it off before anything else happens. She is liable for it, and if she ignored the notices which were sent to her, there isn't really a way out of that.

 

If you prove to the bailiffs that the car is yours and not hers, they may agree to leave it alone. Likewise, if she leaves a Blue Badge on display, they shouldn't touch it. However the debt won't go away - it just means they can't grab the car to force payment, but could still seek to enter her home and take goods. Do you really want to play cat and mouse with them for some indefinite period, while they continue to add on ever more charges?

 

If it were me, I would accept that I forfeited the appeals process and just pay and be done. But it's up to you. The only other option is some sort of appeal to the council about the debtor being disabled - which might mean they class her as vulnerable and make some special arrangement. Not sure. As I suggested, if you go onto the bailiff section of this site, you might get some advice on how best to play them.