Car clamped for PCN owing under old owner

[mammothd]

My car was clamped by a bailiff today.I bought it 4 days ago, so logbook has been sent to DVLA, but not processed.

Bailiff said car was in a company name before I bought it, and I'd have to prove I was the new owner (can't do cos don't have log book) or pay the debt.

 

He started saying total debts were £3000, but wouldn't tell me which authorities it was owed to.

he then said he'd "do me a favour" and let me off paying only one debt,of £577.

 

I paid it by credit card , cos he said otherwise he'd take the car away.

He never got my signature, but left me a receipt,made out to the old owner's name and address.

 

What are my rights here? Should I have fallen for his psychological tricks?

He said if I proved i was the new owner i could write in and get my money back, but I doubt he was telling the truth.

[unclebulgaria67]

Did you not have a receipt showing that you bought the car ?

 

The bailiff has conned you and you will have to see if your bank will reject the debit on the basis that it was made under duress, with the person making false claims. You should not have paid it and called the Police. You have just paid someone elses parking infringements .

[ploddertom]

Moved to Bailiff Forum

[mammothd]

I have a hand written receipt from the seller , but for obvious reasons didn't have it with me at the time.

[mammothd]

I understand from other similar cases a bailiff can tow a car away , even if you can prove you're the new owner and it's not your debt?

Apparently they can "list" a vehicle so it's not legal for the owner with the debt to sell the car. But how would the buyer know it was listed?

The seller's not going to tell them at the time of purchase.

[unclebulgaria67]

Any levy applied to the vehicle would be owed by the person who owned the car at the time of the parking infringements. If they sold a vehicle while a bailiff held a levy on it, then it would be up to the baliff to take it up with the relevant person.

 

You should ask your credit card company to refuse the transaction, as it was made under duress by someone making false claims. The bailiff should have allowed you time to confirm that you had bought the car recently and these PCN's were nothing to do with you. The bailiff cannot ask a third party to pay and not provide any documentation to show relevant legal authority to show they can seize the car.

 

Once you know what your credit card company will be doing with the transaction, then send a copy of the purchase receipt to the bailiffs.

[brassnecked]

What bailiff company was this? was it JBW perchance? Whatever do as UB suggests and get the credit card company to squish the transaction.

[LostAtSea]

How did he find you if the change of ownership had not been processed by DVLA?

[unclebulgaria67]

How did he find you if the change of ownership had not been processed by DVLA?

 

Think they have access to the registration plate identification cameras. They have obviously been alerted to the car in that area and have found it. This has been posted before in similar circumstances, so I presume it is correct.

[tomtubby]

It is such a shame that you have provided so little information because it is so difficult to provide adequate advice.

 

I would assume that the bailiff located your vehicle by ANPR.

 

Which bailiff company?

 

Did the bailiff show you a copy of the warrant?

 

If the bailiff seized the car then he must BY LAW provide a copy of a Notice of Seizure of Goods & Inventory...was this provided to you?

 

You haven't made it clear how much you actually paid the bailiff...can you clarfiy?

 

How was payment made?

[dx100uk]

you paid by credit card

 

you can do an immediate chargeback nOW

 

paid under duress.

 

http://whatconsumer.co.uk/visa-debit-chargeback/

[mammothd]

thanks to all.

yes, he got me with the van with his cameras on top.

He left me a receipt.I paid £567 by visa card.He never got my signature.He just phoned my visa number thro' to his office. he said I'd be able to get a refund if I could prove I was the new owner. Yes, and pigs might fly.

He also left a notice of seizure.

 

It certainly was paid under duress, as he told me a van was coming in the next 30 mins to take the car away. He said he didn't know where it was going to be taken, and once it was gone I wouldn't be able to get my personal stuff from the car (surely not true!).

I'm not stupid, and I know they play tricks, but understandably I really did panic.

 

He never told me, and the receipt he left doesn't say, exactly which council PCN I've actually paid.

I'm not convinced an attempted chargeback would work (I'm a natural pessimist).

[dx100uk]

do it now

 

it will work

 

dx

[brassnecked]

Do it now and hide the car whilst you get the receipt and maybe swear a Statutory Declaration, bill the bailiffs for your costs of obtaining this when you send them proof of ownership.

[tomtubby]

Please do not take this particular post in the wrong way but it is important to know what information the bailiff company will be requiring from you.

 

i receive so many inquiries similar to yours. Sadly, with a lot of them it later transpires that the "sale" was not altogether "above board" and this very common indeed where there are "multiple" parking tickets.

 

Only on Monday I received an enquiry and the new owner was having difficulty providing a copy of the new insurance certificate because "apparently" as the insurance was due to expire in 4 months time the "previous owner" had decided to "add the new owner" to the insurance as an "additional driver". He could not provide any evidence to the bailiff company as to how he had paid for the vehicle and "claimed" that the purchase price of £9,500 had been by cash and that he keeps such amounts of money in cash at home.

 

Last week in another case where the car had been removed to the pound the "new owner" was only able to provide a hand written receipt, claimed that she had "paid" £6,500 in cash and that with regards to the insurance, she tried to convince the bailiff company that as the insurance is so high and she uses the car only rarely that she only insures the car on a "pay as you go" basis ( whereby she insures the car for a few days only).

 

What is always of concern is the amount of cases where the new owner is unable to provide any details (email or phone number) of the previous owner.

 

Bailiffs companies see these cases all day long and for this reason they will almost certainly require the following information from you:

 

A copy of receipt.

 

A copy of the insurance certificate from the date of purchase.

 

Some sort of evidence as to where the car had been advertised (Exchange & Mart, Gumtree, Auto Trader etc)

 

If payment was made in cash...copy of a bank statement showing large withdrawals

 

What information would you be able to provide?

 

Also, which bailiff company seized the car?

[brassnecked]

An insurance cover note issued on the day of purchase in the name of the new owner is a must, whatever else is provided

[tomtubby]

An insurance certificate would normally take a week or so to arrive but a cover note is vital.

[brassnecked]

An insurance certificate would normally take a week or so to arrive but a cover note is vital.

Exactly, it would be required if pulled by police until the details were on the MIB insurance database police ANPR hooks into, so should convince a bailiff, is the bailiff JBW?

[unclebulgaria67]

Yes I can see that people might transfer their vehicles to avoid PCN's and that they would need to show that the new owner had genuinely bought the vehicle.

 

But would there not be an issued with the actions of the bailiff anyway. If the warrant given by TEC was for a vehicle owned by X at X address, would they not have to go back to TEC to get the address of the warrant change, if it was kept at a different address. I thought I had read this somewhere and don't know whether this is the case or not. Sounds a little odd, given that vehicles are mobile and therefore an address on a warrant would not just restrict to action at one address. I presume there is law to seize a vehicle, wherever it is, to obtain the PCN's.

 

Also the bailiff apparently refused to provide any information, only the amount of money they needed to unclamp the car and stop it being taken away. Does not sound like a proper process to me. What does the law allow the bailiff to do in circumstances, where the ownership of the vehicle appears to have changed ?

[brassnecked]

Yes I can see that people might transfer their vehicles to avoid PCN's and that they would need to show that the new owner had genuinely bought the vehicle.

 

But would there not be an issued with the actions of the bailiff anyway. If the warrant given by TEC was for a vehicle owned by X at X address, would they not have to go back to TEC to get the address of the warrant change, if it was kept at a different address. I thought I had read this somewhere and don't know whether this is the case or not. Sounds a little odd, given that vehicles are mobile and therefore an address on a warrant would not just restrict to action at one address. I presume there is law to seize a vehicle, wherever it is, to obtain the PCN's.

 

Also the bailiff apparently refused to provide any information, only the amount of money they needed to unclamp the car and stop it being taken away. Does not sound like a proper process to me. What does the law allow the bailiff to do in circumstances, where the ownership of the vehicle appears to have changed ?

 

many councils and bailiffs ignore the law, and if ANPR goes kerching will sieze and tow, even with a V5 and all docs changed at DVLA, claiming the PCN stays with the car. anything to get money

[tomtubby]

Good point. I have written many letters on this very subject to the Ministry of Justice and even the Information Commissioners Office. It is a complete nonsense that if the person has moved there is requirement to apply to TEC for permission to reissue...and yet is allowed to drive around London seeking to find the VEHICLE that was subject to a contravention. The bailiff should be looking to find the VEHICLE OWNER !!

 

Also, you should be aware that warrant reissue requests should ONLY be made in very rare cases indeed. And yet...this does NOT appear to be the case !!!!

[mammothd]

As regards insurance, it may well be the case the new owner was also a driver of the vehicle (but not the registered owner) prior to buying it. For example, he may have been a salesman for the company, and bought the vehicle as part of a severance package.

 

In this case the insurance certificate will not start on the day he bought the car, as he was already previously insured.

I also don't see why you should have to provide evidence of purchase.Many private sales are done in cash for small amounts (a lot of cars sell for less than £1000) which the buyer could easily have had in his house, rather than having to withdraw it from a bank.And what constitutes a receipt?-it's likely to be a handwritten scrap of paper if it's a cheap car. Is this "proof" the transfer of ownership was to avoid PCN? I don't think so.

At the end of the day, the bailiff should earn his massive fees by finding the person or company who have incurred the debt.If they can't find them they don't get the debt.

 

Can a bailiff take property from your home if ,say, you are the sole resident, and the debt is in the name of someone else? I for one would like to think I'd not hand over a single item if the debt wasn't mine.

[lamma]

"I also don't see why you should have to provide evidence of purchase" The question "whose property is it ?" There is no central register of owners, the DVLA does not keep that information (nor does it have any legal right to do so). Even when buying or selling for cash a Bill of Sale is easy to complete.

[tomtubby]

I would agree that if a car was purchased for around £1,000 it is entirely possible to have some amount of cash in the home.

 

On the point about you already having insurance, I would assume that you would have called the insurance company to change the details of the vehicle. If so, this should be sufficient.

 

One concern that I do have is that as you have already paid nearly £600, the same bailiff company could very likely locate your car again and attempt to remove it.

 

It is for this reason that I would suggest that you get as much information together to prove your ownership ( and also so that you can apply for a refund).

 

Also, have you tried contacting the previous owner as they should be responsible for paying the debt to the bailiff.

Edited May 2, 2013 by tomtubby

[tomtubby]

You have not mentioned which bailiff company this relates to.

 

Your particular query is sadly very common indeed and the ease in which the bailiff managed to "convince" you to pay is of concern as the same bailiff or bailiff company could just as easy locate your car a 2nd time.

 

If the previous owner is contactable, I would strongly suggest that you contact him. It may even be possible that he knows nothing about the PCN's and he is therefore permitted to file and Out of Time witness statement. All enforcement would then cease until the applications are dealt with.

 

PS: Have you called the bailiff company to ask about any other tickets etc? On the Notice of Seizure is there a PCN ref number? This should start with 2 digits followed by 8 numbers.