Reported for prosecution.**Resolved** we think.

[kannkos]

Hi all!

I feel really angry with what happens today because i ll receive an unfair penalty fare i think..

 

i took the "First's" train from Hayle to Penazance which is 2 stops without a ticket

for the reason that there is no ticket office or automatic ticket machine in Hayle so it was impossible to buy one

 

when i arrive to penzance, outside the train there was inspectors from the train company for ticket check.

.i told them that there is nothing in hayle to buy the ticket and they told me that inside the train during the travel there was ticket officers that i could buy one.

 

I didnt see anyone inside the train and not only me but everyone took the train from hayle..i search their rules inside their side and i found this :

 

"What if the ticket office is closed, or the station does not have a ticket office and the automatic self-service ticket machines are out of order?

At most locations there is more than one self-service ticket machine and these are regularly maintained

so it would be unusual for there to be no self-service ticket machines available for you to use.

 

At stations where there is only one self-service ticket machine there is a further automatic machine called a Permit to Travel machine.

This is normally located near the station entrance / exit or beside other self-service machines.

You should insert the maximum number of coins you have with you into the Permit to Travel machine, up to the value of your journey.

Press the button and you will be issued with a Permit to Travel.

 

This permit must be exchanged for a valid train ticket at your first opportunity,

be that on the train or at your destination and in any case within two hours.

You will be given credit for the amount you paid for the permit when you exchange it for a valid ticket.

If the ticket office is closed or not available and the self-service ticket machines

or the Permit to Travel machine is not working then you will not be charged a Penalty Fare."

 

Also inside the train there no sign to warn you that you must find a ticket officer inside the train to pay a ticket..

the sign warns that you should buy the ticket before you get in the train..

so i think that all this is unfair..what you suggest to do?

 

Wait for the letter and make a complain after or to make a complain in the company now?

 

Thanks in advance!!

[firstclassx]

I highly doubt you actually got a Penalty Fare - especially seeing as though the nearest Penalty Fare RPIs are in Taunton, many miles further away.

 

I assume your name and address was taken though?

 

I do wonder whether you were about to leave the station when you were suddenly stopped... walking past the ticket office??

 

Did you definitely get on at Hayle?

[kannkos]

Thanks for reply! Yes they took my address and my name (as everyone else took the train from Hayle) and yes i took the train from hayle because i work there and i live in penzance. There was a lot of inspectors outside the train just before the gate that you walk outside the station.

[firstclassx]

Thanks for reply! Yes they took my address and my name (as everyone else took the train from Hayle) and yes i took the train from hayle because i work there and i live in penzance. There was a lot of inspectors outside the train just before the gate that you walk outside the station.

 

So you have been reported for prosecution, not given a Penalty Fare.

 

Can a mod change the title of the thread?

 

By attempting to leave the station via the exit, without making an effort to pay by:

 

a) Finding the conductor on the train and;

b) Failing to visit the ticket office

 

You commit a criminal offence under Section 5(3)(a) Regulation of Railways Act 1889 as you clearly intended to avoid paying the fare due. Somebody attempting to leave a station without paying for their journey made is likely to be guilty of an offence.

 

If you intended to pay, you would have went to the ticket office, not the exit.

 

FGW are likely to write to you and ask your version of events, and, eventually, may summons you to appear at court.

 

This is quite a serious matter. If convicted, you will paying around £400-£500 in fines & costs and get a criminal record.

 

Am I also correct in assuming, (if you live in Penzance), that you ALSO failed to buy a ticket on the way to Hayle? No reasonable person is going to buy 2 x singles, you'd buy a day return on the way to work.

Edited April 25, 2013 by firstclassx

[maroondevo52]

So you have been reported for prosecution, not given a Penalty Fare.

 

Can a mod change the title of the thread?

 

[kannkos]

Thanks again for the reply!

 

No one took penalty fare from all the guys where there (7-8 persons) but they told us that ll receive a letter..

the exit is before the tickets office if you know exterior space of penzance station.

 

Other that i am not British and i really dont know the laws here but i read their guide in their web site

as i mention before there is no machine or office in hayle so i can pay my ticket..

the morning i go to work with a friend that he has a car but the afternoons i return alone by train

so i dont went in the train station at the mornings so i can buy all day ticket!

 

The inspector told me that i ll receive a fine and if i dont pay it, then i ll go to court.

 

Anyway i still believe its unfair..they can simply add a ticket machine in hayle, theres absolutely no problem to pay the ticket!

[firstclassx]

Thanks again for the reply! No one took penalty fare from all the guys where there (7-8 persons) but they told us that ll receive a letter..the exit is before the tickets office if you know exterior space of penzance station. Other that i am not British and i really dont know the laws here but i read their guide in their web site as i mention before there is no machine or office in hayle so i can pay my ticket..the morning i go to work with a friend that he has a car but the afternoons i return alone by train so i dont went in the train station at the mornings so i can buy all day ticket! The inspector told me that i ll receive a fine and if i dont pay it, then i ll go to court. Anyway i still believe its unfair..they can simply add a ticket machine in hayle, theres absolutely no problem to pay the ticket!

 

You could have paid when you arrived at Penzance though, couldn't you? If you had went to the ticket office or the conductor and got a ticket, instead of trying to leave without paying, you wouldn't be in this position. I think it is fair.

 

No matter what country you come from, if you leave without paying for something that has a charge - it is wrong, and almost always illegal.

 

T

[kannkos]

I didnt try to leave the train station without buy a ticket because i didnt have the chance!

 

In Penzance you can arrive from the interior at the station and from the exterior.

We arrive from the exterior space.

.the ticket machines and office are in the interior but the inspectors waiting us to the exterior gate.

 

they told us that we had to buy the ticket inside the train but i didnt see the ticket officer there.

 

Other that, before 2 days the same happens again with the difference that instead of the inspectors to write our names

you had the chance to buy a ticket from a ticket officer there,

and of course i bought one immediately because as i said i dont have a problem at all to avoid payment but today it was something like trap in my opinion.

[firstclassx]

I'm struggling to understand where you were stopped.

 

There are 2 ways out at Penzance.

 

In this picture, did the Inspectors stand where this lot are?

 

[kannkos]

It looks like this image is a bit old. Now it is a gate there i am the black figure and the red is the inspector.

[firstclassx]

Ah I see. So you didn't walk towards the ticket office!

 

You took the exit that goes outside along Platform 4 and directly into the street by the bus station.

[kannkos]

There is no other option when the train arrives from the exterior space, this is the only way.

 

When i have the chance always pay my ticket and ll be ridiculous if they reported me for prosecution when they know that in Hayle

there is no option to buy a ticket and honestly i didnt see or hear any ticket officer inside the train and i am not the only one,

we were 6-7 people.

 

At least i hope as the inspector told me that there ll be a fine without the need to go to court,

i really dont like troubles even if insist that this in unfair in the specific situation.

[dx100uk]

you need to becareful here

 

you would have been told several times

that is is for You to seek out the on train conductor

not for them to find you

 

hope you get it sorted.

 

seems like a frequent dodge people pull.

 

 

dx

[kannkos]

Thanks! I am in the country just 7 months and really i didn't know that, and the worst is that they don't mention it in their website guide. You can check it here firstcapitalconnect.co.uk/tickets-and-fares/peak-tickets/penalty-fares/

 

Of course may be i am missing something because my english are not the best.

[dx100uk]

sadly it is a general bye law/condition of travel on all train travel regardless of' who' the 'company' you travel with is.

 

one wonders what you have done in the past when this situation has occurred?

sadly rightly or wrongly, if you use the service to travel for your work

it will be assumed you might have regularly left without paying just because you didn't meet the on-board ticket issuer.

 

dx

[kannkos]

I really dont know what i can say but when another guy ask the inspector

"why you dont add an automatic ticket machine in hayle station?"

he said because its just 5 minutes!

 

I dont think that this is an appropriate answer from their side.

 

Its first time that something like that happens in my entire life

and i dont like it at all but at least i hope they ll send me just a fine without the need of prosecution.

[dx100uk]

wait for the letter

 

and grovel

 

unless ofcourse you know you have done this before? even innocently?

just hope they don't look at the old CCTV.

 

dx

[kannkos]

Thanks for your replies! Yes i have made this before because i didnt know that i need to search the ticket officer and i had read the general guide that if in the station is not machine or ticket office you ll not pay a penalty fare. A lot of times of course when the ticket officer came to me, i pay (i thought that this was the procedure)

[Old-CodJA]

Thanks for your replies! Yes i have made this before because i didnt know that i need to search the ticket officer and i had read the general guide that if in the station is not machine or ticket office you ll not pay a penalty fare. A lot of times of course when the ticket officer came to me, i pay (i thought that this was the procedure)

 

 

The question that you will be asked if this gets to Court is:

 

'Where would you have paid the fare if the inspector had not been there to stop and question you at the exit from the station?'

 

I suspect that the answer is that you would not have paid and that on similar occasions in the past you have not paid either.

 

What you are being asked about is not a penalty fare. You need to forget all about penalty fares.

 

This is a question about the fare for the journey which you had taken, but not paid for.

 

Please do not tell the rail company that you thought it was free if you were not asked to pay, that would be very damaging to your chances of gertting it settled without Court action.

[kannkos]

The question that you will be asked if this gets to Court is:

 

'Where would you have paid the fare if the inspector had not been there to stop and question you at the exit from the station?'

 

I suspect that the answer is that you would not have paid and that on similar occasions in the past you have not paid either.

 

What you are being asked about is not a penalty fare. You need to forget all about penalty fares.

 

This is a question about the fare for the journey which you had taken, but not paid for.

 

Please do not tell the rail company that you thought it was free if you were not asked to pay, that would be very damaging to your chances of gertting it settled without Court action.

 

 

Thanks!

Of course and i know that is not free, but the fact that there wasn't other pay option

but searching the ticket officer inside the train is something that should mention in their website

and not lying to the people that if there is not machine or ticket office you ll not pay.

 

So be me for a minute but go to France for example for first time as a foreign guy there.

.what you ll think if you see a station that you cant take a ticket?

To search their website and find the solution..

if in their website you can find a solution that said

" If you are in the station without machine or office you need to search inside the train for the ticket officer" please let me know!

 

I thought that its their problem to have machines in all the stations..

how i suppose to know the laws in a foreign country for me?

[Old-CodJA]

Thanks! Of course and i know that is not free, but the fact that there wasn't other pay option but searching the ticket officer inside the train is something that should mention in their website and not lying to the people that if there is not machine or ticket office you ll not pay. So be me for a minute but go to France for example for first time as a foreign guy there..what you ll think if you see a station that you cant take a ticket? To search their website and find the solution..if in their website you can find a solution that said " If you are in the station without machine or office you need to search inside the train for the ticket officer" please let me know! I thought that its their problem to have machines in all the stations..how i suppose to know the laws in a foreign country for me?

 

Why does everything have to revolve around what's on a website?

 

I'm afraid that ignorance of a law is not a defence and the signs at stations and on trains advise travellers of their responsibilities

 

No-one lied to you, no-one told you that you do not pay if you do not get asked, which is what you are suggesting

 

What was wrong with going to the ticket office at Penzance, or approaching the conductor guard who would be visible at the trainside on the platform when you got off and saying 'I got on at Hayle and need to pay you my fare' rather than just walking out of the station without paying?

[kannkos]

Why does everything have to revolve around what's on a website?

 

I'm afraid that ignorance of a law is not a defence and the signs at stations and on trains advise travellers of their responsibilities

 

No-one lied to you, no-one told you that you do not pay if you do not get asked, which is what you are suggesting

 

What was wrong with going to the ticket office at Penzance, or approaching the conductor guard who would be visible at the trainside on the platform when you got off and saying 'I got on at Hayle and need to pay you my fare' rather than just walking out of the station without paying?

 

Thats exactly what i am saying, you are absolutely right but if you come to hayle station for the first time there is not sign simply because there is no way to buy a ticket. My responsibilitie is to pay the ticket and their responsibilitie is to have a ticket machine in every station or any other paying system or they should be more elastic to this or other station like this.

[honeybee13]

Hello there.

 

It's not really relevant, but I know the French railways quite well. If I couldn't find a ticket machine, I would ask someone on the station or go and look for a member of staff on the train. I wouldn't be able to get onto a website while I was travelling.

 

I'm afraid that your approach to this could make things worse for you, as Old-CodJA is trying to tell you. He's in the rail industry and I'm not, but I haven't seen anyone from this forum proceed to tell the rail company why it's their fault and have a good result. However you feel about our rules and laws, my approach now if I were in your position would be damage limitation and trying to work with the train company instead of going into battle.

 

And I would pay my fare in future, because if you're stopped again it will be worse next time.

 

My best, HB

Edited April 26, 2013 by honeybee13

[Old-CodJA]

Thats exactly what i am saying, you are absolutely right but if you come to hayle station for the first time there is not sign simply because there is no way to buy a ticket. My responsibilitie is to pay the ticket and their responsibilitie is to have a ticket machine in every station or any other paying system or they should be more elastic to this or other station like this.

 

I'm sorry to say that it is not 'their responsibility to have a ticket machine in every station', I agree it is certainly desireable at these small stations, but they are not obliged to do so because they have offered an alternative 'paying system' as you put it.

 

The company allows you to board without a ticket in these circumstances and it is your responsibility to declare your journey and pay your fare.

 

You failed to do that. From your explanation you failed to approach someone at Penzance, knowing that you had not paid, and decided to walk out of the station without having done so.

 

I see very little difference between that action and the person who walks into a supermarket, picking up a bottle of whisky from the shelf and walking out without paying and neither do the Courts.

 

HB's advice is absolutely correct. You telling the rail company that you are right and they are wrong in this situation is very likely to see you receive a summons to Court.

[kannkos]

Hello there.

 

It's not really relevant, but I know the French railways quite well. If I couldn't find a ticket machine, I would ask someone on the station or go and look for a member of staff on the train. I wouldn't be able to get onto a website while I was travelling.

 

I'm afraid that your approach to this could make things worse for you, as Old-CodJA is trying to tell you. He's in the rail industry and I'm not, but I haven't seen anyone from this forum proceed to tell the rail company why it's their fault and have a good result. However you feel about our rules and laws, my approach now if I were in your position would be damage limitation and trying to work with the train company instead of going into battle.

 

And I would pay my fare in future, because if you're stopped again it will be worse next time.

 

My best, HB

 

Thanks for the reply! France was just an example..i always pay my ticket when there is a payment source to buy a ticket and i never dont want to avoid payment but it looks that wasnt very well informed to the situation that there is not a machine or office...now i know and certainly i would try to find the officer inside the train..but i was wondering if i was a 85 years woman and couldnt walk so good so to go and find the ticket officer in the moving train (really its absolutely safe for a mature to walk when the train is moving?) what i should do? Its not my intense to go for a battle with the company of course, i ll apologize and pay my fine, but also the company need to find solutions to the problems and not prosecutions!