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    • OK - thank you. I understand the concept of LIP, and the need to keep my claim as simple and straightforward as possible. The legal arguments presented in what I called my skeleton statement were already in the original template I downloaded from this site. In that document I opened with "I am not proposing to set out the sequence of events." Might it be worthwhile for me to include a very brief timeline at that point, which would perhaps then allow it to become my witness statement? Or do you consider two separate documents are required? 
    • BF do you know where the instruction for skeleton has come from? Its just WX + docs. Do you think a skeleton is needed if the only issue in dispute is the legality of the exclusion terms. it seems excessive as well as wx no?   ah yes good point with LIP wx format i didnt think about the LIP judge softhand 
    • And incidentally, the really important part of this is that when you go to court, you are totally thorough and fluent not only with the facts – but with the effect of the legal points you are arguing. The facts are broadly not in dispute but the legal effect for instance of either having insurance or not having insurance. Of requiring insurance – these are the things you need to understand fully. Preparing your court bundle and eventually refining it bit by bit is terrific revision for you and will put you in control but also understanding its content fully and being fluent with its pages in the position of every point you are making is also essential.
    • Skeleton argument/witness statement – it's just a matter of terminology and we don't need to make an issue of it. Actually the three-page document that you have posted first of all and which you have called skeleton argument – is a witness statement which would be attached to the bundle which would be part of your indexed court bundle. I haven't looked at it in detail get or how it supports your claim or how it addresses any of the points made in the defence. I'll have to do that in the next two or three days. But for the moment, it looks fine. You have posted a second document which you are describing as an anonymized witness statement and as far as I can see, I agree with Cagger @jk2054 that much of your circle witness statement is a bit of a waffle and contains irrelevant information that you haven't remedied it in your final version which you say is chopped up. Also, you have received a suggestion of a template from Cagger @jk2054 and although this is going to be confusing for you, I don't think you should bother to use it. It is far too formal. You are a litigant in person and you need the flexibility of fully informing but informal documents which is what we are providing you with. We are suggesting models which we have been using over many cases and they all succeed in some them have been, complemented by the judge for the effectiveness and their clarity. You are litigant in person and one of the things you need to do is you need to have the judge on your side and helping you if necessary and this means that you don't want to start acting or talking or writing as if you are some kind of lawyer – you aren't. Being a litigant personage a certain sort of leverage and you should exploit that. The templates that we are suggesting to you are still not the templates that a completely un-advised person would use but they are still thorough. Stick to them. I suggest that you follow the advice given by the site team here and avoid confusion by switching horses. So for the moment I would suggest that you stick to your original skeleton argument – which follows the format that we have been using on this forum. We do like to see the fully prepared bundle please. I think there should be a next step. Have you got hearing date? Have you got a date for filing your bundle? In fact I have just looked back and I see that your filing date is 8 July. That's fine
    • First of all – as has already been pointed out to you, this is not a defect in the usual way that we understand and so that means that you don't need to rely on your 30 day and six months rights to reject. You can get MOT test done and it turns out to be an MOT failure for any reason then you have the added weight that they have is sold you an unroadworthy vehicle. Who did the existing MOT? I have a sense that it was big motoring world themselves in which case this would give you even greater leverage that if you have an MOT fail and it seems fairly clear that the reason for the failure is something which existed for some time that that would also cast doubt over the MOT provided by big motoring world and this would be even more serious. In any event, the vehicle is not as described and I think that this is an immediate ground for cancelling the policy and even better than that I think it would be a good ground for resisting any deduction made for mileage used – although we will have to deal with as it comes. I have read on Facebook that big motoring world tend to insist on quite a big deduction per mile and I have a sense that they do this because they know they can get away with it because they know their customers are really just happy to get rid of the vehicle any cost. You have told us you've got to a position where they seem to have agreed that you have now drawn a blank and they are being obstructive. Maybe you can lay out a bullet point chronology of exactly what has happened so far – point by point. I don't think you've told us how much you pay for the vehicle and also we want to know a list of the other expenses to which you been put including insurance et cetera and if you cancel the insurance how much you are likely to lose. How long is it not been driven? Why is it not been driven by your son? Didn't you planned for the more expensive insurance premium before you bought it? I have a sneaking suspicion that maybe you bought it and then was surprised at how expensive it was and are now finding a reason to return it. Please be completely level with us and tell us if this forms part of your reason for wanting to return it. We need to know everything – straight dealing – so we can help you in the best way possible. Otherwise we will have surprises sprung on us and we will all be embarrassed and you may lose. In fact I see that we don't know anything about the current all – make, model, mileage, or price paid which have already asked you about. Any reason that we don't have these very basic and obvious details without having to ask for them? You refer to the two new runflat tyres – why? Are these new ones which came with the car or these new ones which you had to buy and if so why did you have to buy them and how much they cost. It will be nice not to have to cross-examine your every detail. It will save a lot of time. Please have a look at this post carefully, discern the questions and address each one please.
  • Our picks

    • If you are buying a used car – you need to read this survival guide.
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    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

      I’m not happy to do this, drive the car or with the after care experience (a sign of further stresses to come) so want a refund and to return the car asap.

      Please can you advise what I need to do today to get this done. 
       

      Many thanks 
      • 81 replies
    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
      • 161 replies
    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
        • Like

work programe sending me on construction course


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hi,today i did my fortnightly visit to the work program,my adviser said i need to get some new skills,to have a better chance at getting a job,i am 55 years old and not very fit (beer belly)

any way she said i need to go on this 10 weeks construction course,consists of tiling ,plastering, bricklaying ,do you think i am to old to start learning these trades ,as i have only done ware house work in the past,she said go home and think about it,and we will discuss it next time i go,

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The short answer is no, no one is ever too old if they want to do something. If you have absolutley no interest in a job in construction then decline the offer, i`m sure there is a clause in the work program that states they can`t force you to do a course or training that is outside your skills & experience / job requirment .

[ hopefully someone will correct me if i`m wrong].

 

Do you want to give it a go? .

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The short answer is no, no one is ever too old if they want to do something. If you have absolutley no interest in a job in construction then decline the offer, i`m sure there is a clause in the work program that states they can`t force you to do a course or training that is outside your skills & experience / job requirment .

[ hopefully someone will correct me if i`m wrong].

 

Do you want to give it a go? .

im not sure,i dont really want a job in construction at my age,most men are retiring from construction at my age not starting up.

and i have a feeling the course will be full of young people,and i will feel like the odd one out.but my adviser says it would help me getting a job as a caretaker or handy man.

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You might not want a job in construction, i.e. big building sites, but you could learn some new skills like plastering and tiling for example, and then you could tie in with an independent builder on a self-employed basis, or just advertise yourself in the paper for little jobs like that. It depends really on whether you think you would be good at it or whether it leaves you completely cold.

 

I wouldn't worry about being older than everyone else. If you are jolly and join in with the chat you'll be fine.

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im not sure,i dont really want a job in construction at my age,most men are retiring from construction at my age not starting up.

and i have a feeling the course will be full of young people,and i will feel like the odd one out.but my adviser says it would help me getting a job as a caretaker or handy man.

 

Well, only you can know for sure if you want to do the course. I would find out if it is compulsory , if you don`t want to attend the course you want to have your right to refuse water tight.

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hi,today i did my fortnightly visit to the work program,my adviser said i need to get some new skills,to have a better chance at getting a job,i am 55 years old and not very fit (beer belly)

any way she said i need to go on this 10 weeks construction course,consists of tiling ,plastering, bricklaying ,do you think i am to old to start learning these trades ,as i have only done ware house work in the past,she said go home and think about it,and we will discuss it next time i go,

 

As much as I hate the Work program, that's one course I wouldn't mind going on myself.

I'm 51, and fit as a fiddle (as far as I know), and although I wouldn't particularly want to go into construction my house is in a right state and some of those skills would come in very handy. Would you get a CSCS card from it?

 

btw, being older than everyone else has it's advantages :-)

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Construction industry in decline, housebuilding at all time low ...... Govt's new scheme to help first time buyers - in serious doubt. 10 weeks' training might prepare you for home-based DIY jobs but I shouldn't think it would prepare you in any way for the constuction industry. The first two weeks will probably revolve around H&S issues. I should imagine that there's thousands of unemployed or industry-injured construction workers claiming benefits. IMHO. Beer bellies and builders' bums - NOT a good look! :-)

 

But good luck in whatever you decide. I'm older than you are and think that the only way out of JCP or work programme if you haven't found a job by now is probably self-employment. As long as you can earn over £71 pw, you'll be free of JCP and the work programme.

 

Now I've put the world to rights, it's tea-time.

 

Impecunious! :-)

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Once again agreeing with Imp regards to the course getting you much in way of construction work. But I wouldn't even mind learning how to do tiling etc be great for my flat lol might be good and 10 wks peace from the jc lol And if you can do some self employed work with any skills you learn then that's not bad either.

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DD, I'm self-employed (working less than 16 hours a week but not earning anything yet) and I can still claim JSA.

 

If I increased my hours to 16+, I would no longer be eligible for JSA (which is currently £71 pw).

 

If I had exhausted finding a job through JCP and was forced to endure being subjected to a work programme provider, I would rather increase my self-employment hours so that I could earn the equivalent or more than JSA and sign off immediately, to escape the farce that is the work programme provider.

 

I believe that changes to the benefit system means that people who are self-employed will be deemed to be earning a certain amount and working a certain amount of hours, before they become eligible for WTC. I think that HMRC allows for a transition period of up to a year for this - but haven't really looked at this in any depth.

 

If you are on JSA and want to become self-employed, you can ask to be referred to Blue Orchid, in my area, where you will be assessed, business plan approved, mentoring and networking facilitated. If successful, you will come off JSA and will receive a New Enterprise Allowance of £65 pw for the first 12 weeks, followed by £33 pw for a further 12 week period to help you move on from JSA.

 

When I refer to "you" above -- I obviously don't mean you personally -- just anyone in particular! Ooohh, it's late - my brain is addled!!

 

There is definitely information online about NEA.

 

Impecunious! :-)

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hi,today i did my fortnightly visit to the work program,my adviser said i need to get some new skills,to have a better chance at getting a job,i am 55 years old and not very fit (beer belly)

any way she said i need to go on this 10 weeks construction course,consists of tiling ,plastering, bricklaying ,do you think i am to old to start learning these trades ,as i have only done ware house work in the past,she said go home and think about it,and we will discuss it next time i go,

 

Well for a start a course like this will not get anyone on to site, it's not long enough to teach anything useful apart from rudimentary basics.

Tiling is not a recognised trade, it's semi skilled at best. Bricklaying and plastering are both 5 year minimum to qualify, and even then your'e at the bottom of the skills ladder in terms of experience.

 

These advisors really should research the courses they send people on to, as a useful course for DIY skills it's great, as a means to get a real job in construction, forget it.

 

Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges

 

Being poor is like being a Pelican. No matter where you look, all you see is a large bill.

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You are definitely not too old to learn new skills. I would quite enjoy doing something like that, as my attempts at trying to skim a wall at home have been disasters.

 

I agree that such a short course is unlikely to get you into construction on its own, but i guess it might

 

  • help develop skills to do basic DIY tasks for yourself or friends
  • assist you get a job as a caretaker or handy man
  • give you a taste for going on to a further course

If you have found my post useful, please click on the star at the bottom of my post and add some reputation points.

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I agree that such a short course is unlikely to get you into construction on its own, but i guess it might

 

 

  • help develop skills to do basic DIY tasks for yourself or friends
  • assist you get a job as a caretaker or handy man
  • give you a taste for going on to a further course

 

  • Qualify you to work in B&Q or similar store.

If nothing else, it gets you away from the "provider" for ten weeks, although I would check the small print...

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oh I see I thought it was full time for 10 weeks, well you wont be bored lol and learning a new skill you can use at home or to earn money.

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Well for a start a course like this will not get anyone on to site, it's not long enough to teach anything useful apart from rudimentary basics.

Tiling is not a recognised trade, it's semi skilled at best. Bricklaying and plastering are both 5 year minimum to qualify, and even then your'e at the bottom of the skills ladder in terms of experience.

 

These advisors really should research the courses they send people on to, as a useful course for DIY skills it's great, as a means to get a real job in construction, forget it.

 

I was going to say, my sons friend is in his 2nd year at college in construction. He'd be pleased to hear someone gets a job after a few weeks on a course when he's gone through 2 years so far lol

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The guy who tiled my bathroom a few years ago was mates with the plumber. He did a tiling course after his mate said his normal tiler was always letting him down. Now the guy does the tiling for any bathroom/kitchen work the plumber does and also gets lots of referrals from happy customers who tell their friends - he is in his fifties. He managed to make a business out of it, he wasn't rich, but earning enough that he didn't have to claim JSA or other benefits.

We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office ~ Aesop

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Tilers can earn good money, because like decorators they are 'finishing' operatives so whatever they do (if they are competent) looks good, and people will pay.

I have to laugh when outlets like B&Q are selling porcelain tiles at knock down prices and the unsuspecting DIY punter doesn't realise that the tools (diamond edged) needed to cut and fit these tiles cost a small fortune.

 

Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges

 

Being poor is like being a Pelican. No matter where you look, all you see is a large bill.

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so how do they get away with it...if it quite clearly isn't going to improve a chance of work then its just as people say about the WP in general...a waste of money and time. i wonder what your MP would make of it then? not knowing anything about the construction/building trade i obviously didn't realise. if they are organising courses for the sake of it then it needs highlighting? or is this yet another area where the Govt are conveniently deaf?

it may be useful if you wanted to be self employed doing tiling and plastering...but i know sod all about whether you would learn enough to be able to do that, or earn enough from it.

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A can of worms isn't it. No one is going to offer someone in their fifties an apprenticeship, and rightfully so because it would be a criminal waste of resources bearing in mind that most employers would not consider someone of that age.

 

I'm guessing that it's a panacea for the provider, they can go home happy in the knowledge that they have done something, and for the recipient in some cases it could be a welcome break from the every day monotony.

 

The harsh reality is that it's not going to get anyone into mainstream employment, and on that basis I'm out.

 

Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges

 

Being poor is like being a Pelican. No matter where you look, all you see is a large bill.

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that was the kind of thing I was thinking of estellyn, am sure some people would use those skills for that, however if the claimant isn't looking to be self employed then as others have said I doubt whether they would get the interest of an employer from doing the 10 week course, 2 days per week....

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