Can a CEO observe a contravention in 1 minute and doesn’t the Restricted Loading Bays allow for drop-off and pick up ?

[rojroj]

Hi Forumites,

 

I am looking for suggestions from you all.

Our car stopped on a Loading Bay (probably with restrictions) for less than a minute. Immediately my wife saw 2 Traffic Wardens and said I’m going and the Warden said ‘OK you can go’. We moved away immediately. They neither handed over any PCN to any of us, nor attached it to the car, nor did they ask us to wait. However, they still noted the Tax Disc details and might have taken a photograph or two.

Now, what I am worrying is that they might send a PCN by post.

Or even worse, since they don’t have any photographic evidence, they can directly send a NTO a couple of months later claiming that the PCN was Served in hand or Sent by Post (as many other Forumites have experienced).

So, I am looking for advice on what do I need to prepare for and what documents do I need to gather (like some said a RTO or something).

My point is how can a CEO observe a contravention in 1 minute and doesn’t the Restricted Loading Bays allow for drop-off and pick up ?

[Jamberson]

I can understand your concerns, but as things stand, nothing has happened to you. It doesn't sound like they started to issue a PCN so the chances of a postal one appearing are slight. All you can do it wait and see. If you do get one, then you can start thinking about getting a copy of the TRO etc. For now, I wouldn't worry.

[rojroj]

Thanks a lot. The reason for my concern is that he started something on his mobile device - could well be the issuance of the PCN.

Anyway, shall keep posted.

 

Best Regards

[Jamberson]

Could be, but probably not. If you get anything through the post, come back here for help - but I think it's unlikely based on your description of events.

[rojroj]

Well, thought of putting an update on this. We haven't received any PCN by post yet, so probably it won't come as it's 3 weeks now.

Now, this could be good news. But, equally, it could be bad news as we could still receive a NTO directly in a couple of months time. Is there a time limit for the issuance of NTO ?

[Jamberson]

I think it's 56 days, but I'm not 100 percent sure. I think it is doubtful you will ever get anything.

[rojroj]

Thanks a lot Jamberson. I shall update either way.

[rojroj]

Hi all,

As suspected, I just received the NTO today by Post without the PCN. It says the PCN has not been Paid. Here are the details :

On 15/04/2013 a PCN was Issued by CEO SB204 who had reason to believe the following alleged contravention had occured

45 Parked on a taxi rank

Location of Contravention: Church Street, Slough

Time: 19:54

Amount: £70 (to be increased to £105 if no Representations made to the Council within the time allowed)

What are my options and what do you suggest please.

[rojroj]

I found this - can this be appealed against, as no PCN was ever served :

PCN served improperly (MW 625)

The appellant returned to his vehicle as the PCN was being issued, got into the car and prepared to drive away. The Parking Attendant grabbed the PCN from her colleague and threw it through the open window, where it hit the appellant in the face before falling to the ground outside the car. The appellant appealed on the ground that the PCN had not been properly served. The Adjudicator found that section 66 (1) of the Road Traffic Act 1991 - requiring an attendant to "give" the PCN to the driver, as opposed to throwing it - had not been complied with.

The appeal was allowed.

[rojroj]

Also found this :

Guidance to local authorities

 

8.77 A pcn may not be served by post if the motorist returns to the vehicle

before the CEO has started to issue it. A CEO has not started to issue a PCN

if s/he is observing a vehicle or jotting down some details. It is only when

the CEO starts to create the PCN and would otherwise have to cancel it that

they have started to issue it. If the driver returns before the CEO has started

to issue the ticket, the CEO should establish whether the vehicle is parked in

contravention (for example, if loading or unloading is taking place). If the vehicle is

in contravention, the CEO should ask the driver to comply with the restrictions.

 

If a driver is with the vehicle best practice is to ask him to comply before issuing a PCN, if the driver is in the vehicle he/she may have been picking up or dropping off a passenger so starting to issue a PCN without even speaking to the driver is totally wrong.

 

And the PCN actually told that 'we can go'

[Michael Browne]

You need to appeal with your explanation as per post#1 and that the CEO was not prevented from serving the original PCN by affixing it to the windscreen or handing it to the owner or person in charge of the vehicle.

 

Since it was a taxi rank and not a loading bay as you first said, no observation time is necessary and boarding/alighting or loading/unloading exemptions do not apply

[rojroj]

Thanks Michael. Does that mean that in a Taxi Rank, a PCN can be issued immediately ?

[Michael Browne]

. Does that mean that in a Taxi Rank, a PCN can be issued immediately ?

 

Yes no obs time needed for code 45

[rojroj]

Thanks. In that case, is it worth appealing and is there a realistic chance of winning ? Or should I simply pay the £35 ?

Should I ask for the Notes of the CEO and the PCN Details which they never sent ?

[Michael Browne]

Thanks. In that case, is it worth appealing and is there a realistic chance of winning ? Or should I simply pay the £35 ?

Yes, you have nothing to lose since at the NTO stage the £35 discount offer is long gone It's now £70, which won't increase if you appeal to the NTO and then to the parking adjudicator

[rojroj]

Well, if they never sent a PCN, shouldn't I still have the chance to pay the Reduced Fee ?

Also, don't they have to provide some kind of proof that they actually issued / posted the PCN (proof of Posting) or can they simply claim that they have done it ?

[Michael Browne]

They could claim it was handed to you.

 

They can't claim you drove off before the ticket could be served, thus explaining their lack of photo evidence, since the PCN would then need to have been sent by post.

 

Well, if they never sent a pcn, shouldn't I still have the chance to pay the Reduced Fee ?

Presumably their argument is that it was served and therefore you were offered the discount.

PCN's don't require proof of postage.

[rojroj]

In the Appeal, should I ask for the Notes of the CEO and the PCN Details which they never sent ? Or should I ask for these separately ?

 

Also, under section one: Grounds for Representations, should I tick 'There has been a procedural impropriety on behalf of the authority' ?

[Michael Browne]

Tick both:

 

• There has been a procedural impropriety on the part of the enforcement authority;
  
• The civil enforcement officer was not prevented by some person from fixing the penalty charge notice to the vehicle or handing it to the person in charge of the vehicle.
  

In the Appeal, should I ask for the Notes of the CEO and the pcn Details which they never sent ?

Ask for the notes, they won't send them, which will be another point to make at adjudication.

[Jamberson]

Do appeal it, and make it clear that you deny the PCN was ever served. Give your version of events - and they will have no evidence to the contrary.

 

By the way, were you actually in a taxi rank? That might be what they say, but you said you were in a loading bay. If you are sure it was a loading bay, that's a second way to get the PCN invalidated.

[rojroj]

Thanks again Michael. However, in my Representations Form, "The civil enforcement officer was not prevented by some person from fixing the penalty charge notice to the vehicle or handing it to the person in charge of the vehicle" option is not present at all.

I am drafting a reply and would post it here for cross check.

[rojroj]

Thanks again Michael. However, in my Representations Form, "The civil enforcement officer was not prevented by some person from fixing the penalty charge notice to the vehicle or handing it to the person in charge of the vehicle" option is not present at all.

I am drafting a reply and would post it here for cross check.

[rojroj]

Thanks Jamberson.

Yes it was actually a Taxi Bay. We didn't check at that time. But I would have thought that stopping in a Taxi Bay for a minute to pick someone up would be allowed, but it appears that it's not the case.

[Michael Browne]

That sort of confirms that they will claim it was handed to the driver ie they didn't need to send it by post because they had allegedly served it on the driver and this is an additional ground for postal PCN's

[rojroj]

Interesting point raised by Michael (ommission of clause h) :

Representations against notice to owner

This section has no associated Explanatory Memorandum

4.—(1) The recipient may make representations against a notice to owner to the enforcement authority which served the notice on him.

(2) Any representations under this regulation must—

(a)be made in such form as may be specified by the enforcement authority;

(b)be to either or both of the following effects—

(i)that, in relation to the alleged contravention on account of which the notice to owner was served, one or more of the grounds specified in paragraph (4) applies; or

(ii)that, whether or not any of those grounds apply, there are compelling reasons why, in the particular circumstances of the case, the enforcement authority should cancel the penalty charge and refund any sum paid to it on account of the penalty charge.

(3) In determining the form for making representations, an enforcement authority which is a London authority must act through the joint committee through which, in accordance with regulation 15 of the General Regulations, it exercises its functions relating to adjudicators.

(4) The grounds referred to in paragraph (2)(b)(i) are—

(h)in a case where a penalty charge notice was served by post on the basis that a civil enforcement officer was prevented by some person from fixing it to the vehicle concerned or handing it to the owner or person in charge of the vehicle, that no civil enforcement officer was so prevented;

 

Does this vary depending on Council or circumstances - I thought the Grounds for Representations under the Traffic Management Act 2004 were same for all ?