Westminster PCN - misleading signs

[special_k]

I got a PCN from Westminster and I have already filed an informal appeal.

 

There were 2 signs one above the other right beside where I parked (photo attached). One said "Disabled badge holders only. At any time". The one below said "Mon-Fri 8:30am - 6.30pm. Maximum stay 4 hours, no return within 1 hour".

 

I figured that the top one applied to the bay in front, which was clearly marked disabled and the other applied to the bay in which I was parked (photo attached). It was raining really heavily that day so I couldn't get pictures but I used google maps streetview to get photos and used that for my informal appeal.

 

In the rejection letter, they stated that I was in a residents' bay and there was a sign 12 metres behind my car.

 

I remember reading somewhere that where one restriction meets another, there should be a sign 5metres from either end and there definitely was not.

 

If this 5 metre rule is accurate, could somebody please point me in the direction of the official wording I can use to make a formal representation?

 

Thanks!

[Jamberson]

Looks to me like the two signs next to the disabled bay belong together, and both apply to the disabled bay, not the bay you were in. I am not aware of a 5m rule - someone else might know.

 

What was the contravention on the PCN? And what type of bay was it?

[special_k]

Looks to me like the two signs next to the disabled bay belong together, and both apply to the disabled bay, not the bay you were in. I am not aware of a 5m rule - someone else might know.

 

What was the contravention on the PCN? And what type of bay was it?

 

The PCN says 12R - parked in a residents bay.

 

On this website, http://www.penaltychargenotice.co.uk/parking/contraventions-for-parking/contravention-code-12/, I found this

"2. Quite often motorists are confused by poor signage, for example where pay and display bays join resident’s only bays. Camden council in London are particularly poor at signposting their various restrictions. If the signage is confusing you should take photographs and make representations. If the signage is not clear and does not comply then the contravention did not occur. Remember that there should be a clear and un-obscured sign within 15 metres (3 car lengths) of where you parked. If you have different types of bays adjoining each other for example pay and display bays adjoining residents parking bays then there should be a sign either at the point where the bays meet with arrows pointing each way and clearly showing the different types of enforcement or signs showing each restriction within 5 meters of each side of the demarcation line. We do not believe it sufficient for there to be just demarcation lines in the Road."

 

But I'm not sure where that quotes from.

 

In their rejection notice, they said the sign was in the middle of the bay but it was not. On the day, I remember looking and not being able to see one close to me. On google street view, I did see it and it was closer to the other end than the end where I was parked. They also said the sign was 12 metres from my car. The quote above says 15 metres is roughly 3 car lengths and the sign was about 4 car lengths from me (this is all based on google maps as it was raining too heavily to take pictures that day).

[Jamberson]

So you were ticketed for being in a residents bay, and you were in a residents bay. That bit stands.

 

Now the position of the the signage - you say it was four car lengths. Googled at random, a Ford Focus is 4.4m long, so by this reckoning, the sign was about 17.6 metres away, give or take. They say 12 metres so it's probably somewhere around this 15 metres mark. I can't see it's a very strong point of appeal, unless you can show that it was much further away than is reasonable. After all, as a motorist, you are responsible for actively looking for the sign, to see what it says.

[green_and_mean]

You are on a sticky wicket because even if you argue you thought the disabled sign applied to your bay you then have to argue that it made you think it was a 'free' bay rather than a time limited 'disabled' bay.

[special_k]

Thank you both. I may just have to concede on this one then!