Fraud investigation advice please

[dc1960]

Yes, that's true. Glad I didn't print off and send my SAR 'chapter and verse' letter now; it probably would have kept half a dozen data controllers busy for weeks. I'll go the simple approach first then... thank you.

[dc1960]

I'm sorry, I have a few more questions; tends to happen when I'm obsessing about it as I am today.

 

Can anyone explain why the lack of work focused interviews throughout the time I received ESA? My claim started in December 2009. I was due to have five/six(?) WFI's with RBLI Employment Solutions and these started approx March 2010. On the third/fourth interview I attended I was told that I no longer needed to attend for the remainder of the interviews and that my file was being returned to the DWP who would contact me - they never did and I was never called to WFI's in the remaining 3 years until termination of ESA in January of this year. It was quite clear to my advisor in early 2010 that I was in no way fit for work and nor would I be in near/foreseeable future but I cannot think she, herself , would have the authority to terminate WFI's? DWP never contacted me about any further work focused interviews which I think is odd, given that most people are hounded to take part in them.

[abc123def]

You've been 'parked'. These agencies get money for results and once they realise they aren't going to get you into work they leave you alone and stop wasting their money when no money will be returned for the effort.

[LifeIsAMess]

Hi dc1960, how are you getting on? Your situation is quite similar to mine. I just posted my story for the first time today. Had my IUC just 5 weeks ago. We are even from roughly the same area!

 

I totally get what you are going through, the difference with my situation is my friend and I have no financial links but I've fully admitted that he does stay here. It's very unfair and totally sympathise with you

[dc1960]

LifeIaAMess, sorry, I did see your message a while back but I've been trying to take a step back from thinking about this constantly, but thank you for asking. I'm still functioning on auto-pilot and, I suppose, not doing that great. It's taking its toll. I hope you're doing a bit better.

 

I've finally received (yesterday) a bundle a evidence papers as it seems it's finally been referred to tribunal. I've yet to receive anything from the tribunal service itself. I'm wondering if anyone can please help with some advice on how I should format my appeal? I'm a bit overwhelmed by the huge pile papers I've received and don't really know where to start. To sort of recap - I have a solicitor but his help doesn't 'kick in' unless/until court/prosecution papers(?) are issued. CAB were not helpful and despite extensive research I can find no welfare rights help in my general location. So I'm on my own as far as the appeal goes.

 

All of the 'evidence' is completely what I expected and none of it I actually dispute, as per what I told the investigator at my IUC - that my friend lives here, why he started to live here, why he continues to live here, etc. I think once I get started, it'll maybe fall into place but I'm very unsure on how to 'present' my appeal?

 

There is one thing, however, that has completely confused me. I had thought (since more recently trying to understand ESA) that I was I was initially receiving contribution based benefit and, indeed, I see from the transcript of my IUC that the investigator actually says "I have here that for the first year of your claim that it was contribution based and then became both contribution based and income related... I'm still trying to find out". I'm very, very confused here - they appear to be claiming that, as a result of "living with a partner in full time work" (to paraphrase) that my claim was "fraudulent"(?) from the start and should never have been paid. In my initial claim (by telephone) I did not declare I had a friend living here as I was only asked if I had a partner - though it seems I did tell them that I had a friend's name on the mortgage. Most certainly, I have never completed an ESA3 form which they say I did (I think this is for change of circs or to declare others forms of income??); this form the investigator could not find at the time of my IUC and it is not contained or referred to at all in the evidence bundle. I cannot understand why, if my claim was initially c-based why they are saying I should never have received ESA in the first place - I thought c-based ESA was not means tested? I had nothing from them throughout the 3 year course of my claim to say that my ESA was changing and there is nothing in their evidence about this either?

 

But regardless, I'd be ever so grateful if someone could kick me off in the right direction with how to set out my appeal.

[LifeIsAMess]

Hi again

 

Can you access Advice Works in your area? I know you are near me so check them out. They are who faxed my appeal form through for me last week because I couldn't get any information from anyone over the phone to ask for a reconsideration first. They are really helpful and know more about the benefits system and appeals than CAB or anyone else so please look them up asap.

 

I have found out some very disturbing stuff with regards to DWP and my investigation, they will lie through their teeth to get the outcome that they want regardless of whether they end up deciding they are wrong or not.

 

Also sorry to ask but if any of your health issues are mental health issues then get your psychiatrist or key/social worker to help you too. I think that's one of the reasons why mine is being dealt with so quickly though they have already caused irepairable damage.

 

I'm also happy to help if you need, I've had appointments coming out my ears with all sorts of people with regards to this since my IUC and have gathered all sorts of useful information. I've read through DWP's fraud legislation I don't know how many times and you know if they actually followed their own rules most people would be found not guilty of fraud...negligent maybe but not fraudsters.

[dc1960]

Hello, thanks for your reply. Brain's a mush... without saying too much, you "know I am near you" ? Sorry, utter paranoia creeping in I think.

 

Really appreciate the info on Advice Works - however, I've Googled them + my general location and drew a blank? Are you able to give any more details please?

 

My mental health, without wanting to go into detail, is poor in the extreme. The counsellor I was seeing felt that my current (well, it's just stopped) 'treatment' with him was inadequate; he drew a halt as a result and has referred me back, urgently, to the local mental health team and I have an appointment shortly. I do have a copy of a letter he sent to my GP in this regard but, quite honestly, I'm not sure what benefit it is to me in this whole mess.

[LifeIsAMess]

Sorry didn't mean to freak you out, I know all too well what the paranoia is like that comes from all this. It's just you mentioned Fraud Investigation Service in Glasgow in one of your posts and that's where I'm from so I assumed you may be too or thereabouts that's all

 

I'm just outside Glasgow, I'm wondering if AdviceWorks is something only available in my local area. I'll check this out for you and let you know.

 

The reason I said about your mental health is because of the reason I said above. I do think they try not to string it out for too long so that your mental health doesn't become worse. If it goes to court you may get a more lenient sentence (assuming you do get sentenced!) due to your mental health and your mental health workers can stop the press becoming involved too should it get to that stage. That may seem like small potatoes in the grand scheme of things but every little helps I think.

 

I suffer from mental health issues myself and was bullied and traumatised at my IUC, 2 days after getting my decision letter I was involved in serious car accident...all because they made a decision on the balance of probability which isn't true. Just saying don't let them drag you down further, if you have MH issues let them know and make them aware how badly all this is affecting you.

[michphil]

Hi dc1960 I am sorry to read what you have been going through we have had the same thing. My husband was interviewed under caution last May 2012 we did not hear anything and have lived for 12 months worrying then all of a sudden a big package came through the door 11 months after the interview for him to go to court. I am really sorry you are going through this they don't think about what the person who they have interviewed goes through not knowing what is going to happen to them I hope that you get this resolved sooner rather than later good luck and try not to worry

[brownletterdiet]

Hi, I too sympathise with how slow the DWP work. Not only that, but not even keeping you informed as to what is going on. I had an IUC in February (beginning) last year, and have yet to hear anything (its nearly 16 months). Is this normal?

[dc1960]

Things finally seem to be moving. A month ago I heard from the Tribunal service regarding my appeal; no date has yet been set. This morning I receive a large bundle of papers from the court - the DWP are trying for prosecution and a court date has been set for mid September.

 

I know I have read information somewhere with regard to my question but cannot now find it so may I please ask - should be tribunal hearing go ahead prior to the court hearing? I'm sure I have read that this has been (and still is) a very contentious issue and is something that welfare rights workers/solicitors often struggle with, i.e. trying to get the case to tribunal before a court date. I am yet to speak with my solicitor regarding this (having only just received court papers this morning) but can anyone please advise if there is any way I can re my tribunal goes ahead before the court date?

[dc1960]

My apologies, cat on keyboard and post 'sent' accidentally.

 

To finish - is there any way I can request that my tribunal goes ahead before the court date. I cannot see this happening as the court date is only circa 6 weeks away and I am told that the tribunal service has a heavy backlog of cases.

 

Many thanks.

[LifeIsAMess]

Things finally seem to be moving. A month ago I heard from the Tribunal service regarding my appeal; no date has yet been set. This morning I receive a large bundle of papers from the court - the DWP are trying for prosecution and a court date has been set for mid September.

 

I know I have read information somewhere with regard to my question but cannot now find it so may I please ask - should be tribunal hearing go ahead prior to the court hearing? I'm sure I have read that this has been (and still is) a very contentious issue and is something that welfare rights workers/solicitors often struggle with, i.e. trying to get the case to tribunal before a court date. I am yet to speak with my solicitor regarding this (having only just received court papers this morning) but can anyone please advise if there is any way I can re my tribunal goes ahead before the court date?

 

Hi again, what did the tribunal say regarding your appeal if they were not letting you know of a date?

 

I believe the DWP can take you to court regardless of whether you've had your tribunal or not but I'm not sure how all that works out when it comes to the overpayment. It's really confusing. Hope someone will be along soon to answer as I'm aware the same thing could happen to me. I know the tribunal deals with the civil side of things and the courts deal with the criminal side.

 

My tribunal is Aug 25th...I think I read somewhere that DWP can turn up and not let it go ahead also because they want to take the person to court, I'll be asking my solicitor about that when he comes back from holiday.

 

I hope you have stuck to your guns re your living arrangements; if you're not LTAHAW then you shouldn't have to change it and just knowing someone else is in the house can be a huge comfort during probably the most distressing time ever.

[estellyn]

You can write and ask the Tribunal service for an expedited appeal, and agree to take a short notice cancellation - of course whether you get a date in time will be dependant on case loads and cancellations.

 

In these types of cases, a successful Tribunal decision means no case to answer at court.

 

No the DWP cannot stop a Tribunal just because they want to prosecute the person.

[LifeIsAMess]

You can write and ask the Tribunal service for an expedited appeal, and agree to take a short notice cancellation - of course whether you get a date in time will be dependant on case loads and cancellations.

 

In these types of cases, a successful Tribunal decision means no case to answer at court.

 

No the DWP cannot stop a Tribunal just because they want to prosecute the person.

 

Good news estellyn, I'm sure it was only recently someone said the opposite happened to them.

 

dc1960 hopefully you can get it expedited or get a cancellation like estellyn said. Mine is also in the Glasgow court and I only waited 10 weeks, that was the full waiting time so hopefully you have a very good chance.

[dc1960]

Thank you both. I'm not coping very well with this. So frustrated with myself but having spent months and months thinking about nothing else and dealing with all it brings, I seem to have run out of mental energy just when I need it. I contacted my solicitor the day after receiving the court papers - he wasn't there, no call back. Just called again, not in the office again, I've requested an urgent call back. Having looked at the court papers again the case is scheduled for 9th September. It feels incredibly unfair and actually quite orchestrated by the DWP. I appealed their 'living together' decision in early January, had an acknowledgement letter, chased them up when I'd heard nothing for a while only to be told they'd never received my appeal - so basically they'd lost it. I re-submitted my appeal - they lost that too. I then contacted the relevant government minister who passed my letter of complaint to someone in the DWP's Operational Excellence Department. She was most helpful and emailed/faxed a copy of my appeal to the relevant office herself with the promise that they would "deal with it as a matter of urgency".

 

Needless to say - they didn't. I received a letter from the DWP acknowledging my appeal just a few weeks ago - almost 8 months after its submission. Within 10 days of them acknowledging my appeal, a court requisition arrives with a hearing date of 9th September; a little over 4 weeks away... and absolutely no chance, I would imagine, of now managing to get a tribunal date before court.

 

Don't know what to do; ask for an adjournment based on the above facts? I just have to hope that (a) I can get to meet my barrister asap and (b) he knows what he's doing.

 

Lifeismess - sorry, I meant to say ages ago, we've been talking at cross purposes. It just happens to be a DWP fraud investigation office in Glasgow who have been dealing with my case; I actually live in the south east.

[dc1960]

Thought I'd come back and update this for the benefit of anyone reading who is in a similar situation. I can't believe it's almost a year since last posting here and two years since my initial interview under caution; if I've learned one thing, it's however long you imagine the process might be, you can comfortably double or treble it.

 

The initial trial date of September 2013 was put back to April 2014 due to a court backlog. My tribunal appeal was running alongside this and that, too, became fraught with problems; postponements and not being able to find any kind of representation. My hopes had always been that the tribunal would take place before the trial but, again, due to a backlog in the tribunal service the anticipated date was still months away. Fortunately, or so I thought, I received a (tribunal) hearing date to take place prior to the court date. The DWP then requested, at the last moment, a postponement due to staff shortages (they had no presenting officer available) which was agreed by the tribunal judge and the rearranged date again fell after the trial date in April. I requested that the tribunal did not postpone, but was unsuccessful.

 

I attended Magistrates court in April and my case was adjourned before even starting. Ridiculous as it might seem, I was never actually clear on why the adjournment happened; I was a bit of a mess, the brief proceedings went over my head and my solicitor disappeared within moments of walking out of the court room. A trial date was set for June.

 

In the meantime, I had notification from the tribunal service of a hearing date in May. Close up to that date the DWP again requested postponement for the same reason but this was denied by the judge. The hearing went ahead and after 2.5 hours the judge adjourned due to the complex nature of my appeal and the fact that although the DWP had sent a presenting officer, the local authority hadn't. I asked the judge if the appeal could now be expedited, explaining re the trial date and why I felt it so important that the tribunal hearing took place prior to my trial. He agreed, commenting that he rarely expedited an appeal but felt, in this case, it was vital that the hearing took place prior to magistrates. I had the impression he was also pretty fed up with the DWP and LA. He requested certain, further, pieces of evidence from myself be sent to the tribunal asap and directed that PO's from both the DWP and LA must attend the next hearing.

 

I had confirmation from the tribunal service of an expedited hearing, date to be confirmed but to take place prior to the trial date.... and just when you start to think things couldn't possibly become more complex and stressful, a week later another letter stating that although the judge had requested an expedited hearing, no dates were available prior to the date of my trial.

 

I attended Magistrates court in June and prior to going into the courtroom was astounded to be told by my barrister that the prosecutor was going to request an adjournment. In the courtroom, the prosecutor told the Magistrates that he had no prior knowledge of an appeal having been in place until he'd been informed (by whom, I don't know) that a tribunal judge had agreed an expedited appeal, that he felt this a fairly unusual step for a tribunal judge to take and in light of that he was requesting an adjournment. He also commented that he'd spoken to the DWP about this who said "What appeal? There's an appeal?". Magistrates not happy, directed that the DWP pay court costs for wasting the court's time. Yet another date set for trial in late August.

 

Fortunately, I’d had notification from the tribunal service of a hearing date for June – yesterday actually. A LA presenting officer turned up but the hearing was delayed due to the no-show of the DWP’s PO. When we did actually start, 30 minutes into proceedings the judge was given a note by the clerk ; the DWP had just rung to say that the previous PO had left their employment, they didn’t have another PO working on a Thursday and could they please have another postponement? I don’t think I need say what his answer was.

 

The hearing again took approximately 2.5 hours with the judge having to bring the LA’s PO up to speed on the previous hearing. Judge said he would make a decision that day and that I would hear, in writing, within 3 days.

 

Sorry this is so lengthy. It’s part self indulgence as it’s a been an incredibly long, stressful experience and I’ve few people I’d want to burden with it – but also, for anyone going through the appeals process I think it’s helpful to realise as early on as possible that nothing happens quickly and there’s little you can do to speed things up, have some kind of resolution either way, and just get on with life.

 

I’ll update again in a few days re the appeal.

[Ubiquitious]

Hang in there!

 

 

This almost sounds a bit cruel to keep having adjournments?

 

 

At what point does a judge just say this has gotten ridiculous and orders the case dropped!?

[dc1960]

(Just posted this on the wrong thread; duplicating it here)

 

Received this morning the decision notices from the Tribunal and a letter from the DWP. Both of my appeals (‘living together’ and the subsequent large overpayment of ESA benefit) were allowed. The letter from the DWP relates the same, stating ‘no overpayment of benefit’.

 

I should be delighted but don’t seem capable of feeling anything other than, perhaps, a rising sense of anger. Like most people, I’ve had some turbulent times in life but can safely say that the last two years since the initial interview under caution have been the worst, leaving me in a limbo of depression and constant anxiety.

 

All I seem to be able to focus on are my mistakes and the biggest one, by far, was not realising early on how crucial it was to find legal help specialising in welfare benefit cases. You panic, proceedings looming, unable to find specialist help because it either doesn’t exist within reasonable traveling distance (remembering you’re unwell and often penniless which is why you’d made a claim to benefit in the first place) or they’re already snowed under and unable to take your case. Knowing I’d done nothing wrong, I settled for a local solicitor with very little expertise in the field because surely all I needed was someone to help me set things out, dot the i’s and cross the t’s, right? Wrong. Very wrong. Terrified of changing solicitors part way through, I constantly found myself struggling to lead him through the complexities only to be ‘kindly’ but constantly told to make an early guilty plea and that my case was weak.

 

To be fair to the solicitor, legal aid does not cover the tribunal/appeal process and, even had he possessed knowledge and understanding, he still wouldn’t have been able to assist me pick my way through the appeals process. With no-one to represent me, I was on my own through several (adjourned) appeals and I’m just very thankful that, ultimately, the tribunal hearing took place prior to criminal proceedings in magistrates court; my solicitor tells me I was “very lucky” that the prosecutor sought and obtained a last minute adjournment so that the tribunal went ahead first. I firmly believe that the prosecutor knew their case was weak and that the tribunal was likely to find in my favour.

 

For anyone going through similar all I can say is, if you know you have done no wrong, never take the optimistic view that you’ll be believed by the DWP and move heaven and earth to find yourself representation who understands welfare benefit law inside out.