UK debt but Im Canadian living in Canada

[sahilian3795]

Hi Everyone,

 

Im hoping that someone on here will be able to provide me with some insight.

 

I left the UK in 2009 with 3 credit card debts of approximately 3,000 gbp each. Since leaving, I have been making minimum payments and have not missed a single payment to date. However, finances are becoming extremely tight and I can no longer afford to make my minimum payments.

 

I am a Canadian, I live in Canada and as far as I know, only 1 of the 3 credit card companies knows of an address I had just after returning to Canada. I no longer have that address though.

 

If I stop making my minimum payments, what will happen? After how long? I dont believe I can declare bankruptcy in the UK because it has been more than 3 years. I do not plan on returning to the UK ever.

 

Thanks for any advice you can provide.

[renegadeimp]

The only thing that will happen is your credit file in the UK will be marked. You may recieve a CCJ in the UK, but they couldnt enforce it as you arent here, and it would cost them substantially more to try and bring a claim in Canada. Thats IF they can claim jurisdiction there.

 

If you dont plan on returning, then you can just ignore it. However, CAG and myself dont advocate debt avoidance. Morally you should repay your debts, but legally, theres almost nothing they can do, and if they dont have your current address, theres pretty much nothing they can do.

[sahilian3795]

Thanks for the quick reply.

 

The fact of the matter is that I will want to begin repaying the debt once I am able to afford to again (perhaps in the later part of 2014) - should I even consider that because I will most likely not receive any post they try to send to me in Canada (only addresses they may have are old ones... so how will I know the status of my outstanding debts?)

 

A few more questions...

1. When I stop making my payments at the end of this month, what typically happens?

2. If they have my address in Canada (or can find me), arent there reciprocal agreements with Canada that allow them to chase me for my debt here?

3. Are you aware of any consequences as far as my Canadian credit is concerned?4

Lastly, while in the UK, I never actually had a National Insurance number. For the 4 years, I was on a TN coded national insurance number. Does that make any difference to the situation? Essentially, if the creditors wanted to find out where I am, they probably can. I just want to be prepared with what is to come.

 

Thanks guys.

[renegadeimp]

1. Same as in the UK. the debt will default, youll gain a default charge ont he debt, and it will be marked on the file. A CCJ could happen, but it depends on the validity of the debt.

2. An admin or more experienced poster would be better suited to answer that.

3. Your canadian credit will not be affected by a UK debt. Same as if you racked up debts in Canada and lived in the UK.

[sahilian3795]

Thanks again.

 

So let's fast forward 3-4 years down the road. How will I know if one of these credit card companies is after my debt if I do not receive any post in the mail?

[unclebulgaria67]

Advisable to let creditors know of your circumstances, that you cannot continue repayments and of your Canadian address. Then they cannot apply for a UK CCJ, as you are not resident. If you don't advise them you are abroad, then you might have the hassle of them trying to enforce a UK CCJ in the Canadian courts. This would involve getting the UK CCJ set aside, which would cost you, particularly if you had to get a Solicitor to act on your behalf. They might think about bankruptcy in the UK courts in your absence, serving papers in Canada, but given the costs of this and no likelyhood of any return they won't bother.

 

The only downside, is that obviously you may get hassled by debt collector phone calls and letter, but they cannot do much. You would just tell them that you had contacted the creditors to advise them of your situation and as this has not changed, you won't engage in any communications with them while this remains the case.

[unclebulgaria67]

• All provinces except Québec have enacted reciprocal enforcement legislation in respect of UK judgments.
  
• Judgments from other jurisdictions can be sued upon in local courts and are frequently enforced provided they satisfy the "real and substantial connection" test and other requirements.
  

[sahilian3795]

But the likelihood of a judgement being taken on me?

 

Also, how long after I stop paying do the debt collectors come after me (are we talking weeks? Months?)? Won't I have an opportunity to eventually settle with them before it goes as far as a court?

[unclebulgaria67]

But the likelihood of a judgement being taken on me?

 

Also, how long after I stop paying do the debt collectors come after me (are we talking weeks? Months?)? Won't I have an opportunity to eventually settle with them before it goes as far as a court?

 

If they know you are in Canada, they should not go for a CCJ, as they can only do that if you are resident in the UK. It is a good idea to make your creditors aware that you are outside of the UK, otherwise you risk getting a CCJ by default. What you ideally want is for the original creditors to note your UK credit record that you now outside the UK. Then if they sell the debt on, there can be no excuse for a DCA to get a sneaky CCJ, but not telling a court you are not in the UK.

 

If you don't tell them of the situation, I think what will happen after you stop paying is that the original creditor will send loads of letters and make phone calls to whatever address they have for you. If you do tell them, then they may put the account on hold for say 6 months and then contact you again to see if your situation had changed. Obviously they won't put the account on hold forever, so after say a year, they will probably be sold to a DCA. If you are abroad and the DCA knows this, then they will be a bit stuck. At some point a DCA may pass to a DCA in Canada and they would make enquiries with you, but again without a UK court judgement or UK insolvency process, they cannot do much.

 

So you can see why you it is better to contact your creditors and put up with any hassle in receiving letter and/or phone calls. If you just want to hide, then you risk action being taken you have knowledge of and then the hassle of trying to sort it out. There are cases on here, where people have gone abroad without telling creditors and in their absence CCJ's or bankruptcy proceedings have been taken against them, with DCA's then writing to their foreign address. They then either have to try to get the UK court action set aside or try to resolve the debt by making payments, to avoid the transfer to courts where they are living.

Edited March 29, 2013 by unclebulgaria67

[sahilian3795]

Thanks again for the insight.

 

So, when I contact the credit card companies to inform them that I can no longer make payments, how should I word the email? Is it really worth giving them my current address or should I just remind them that I am not a UK resident, I never held a UK citizenship and only had a TN national insurance number?

 

My goal is to start repaying the debt in 2014. It would also work in my favour if the debt is sold and I negotiate something with the new creditor?

 

My guess is that any correspondence they may send will go to a very old address and then just get returned to them back in the UK. They have my email address so will they just attempt to contact me via email?

[havinastella]

CONVENTION BETWEEN CANADA AND THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND PROVIDING FOR THE RECIPROCAL RECOGNITION AND ENFORCEMENT OF JUDGMENTS IN CIVIL AND COMMERCIAL MATTERS

Canada,

and

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland,

DESIRING to provide on the basis of reciprocity for the recognition and enforcement of judgments in civil and commercial matters;

HAVE AGREED AS FOLLOWS:

PART I

DEFINITIONS

ARTICLE I

In this Convention

(a) “appeal” includes any proceeding by way of discharging or setting aside a judgment or an application for a new trial or a stay of execution;

(b) “the 1968 Convention” means the Convention of 27th September 1968 on Jurisdiction and the Enforcement of Judgments in Civil and Commercial Matters as amended;

© “court of a Contracting State” means

(i) in relation to the United Kingdom, any court of the United Kingdom or of any territory to which this Convention extends pursuant to Article XIII,

(ii) in relation to Canada, the Federal Court of Canada or any court of a province or territory to which this Convention extends pursuant to Article XII,

and the expressions “court of the United Kingdom” and “court of Canada” shall be construed accordingly;

(d) “judgment” means any decision, however described (judgment, order and the like), given by a court in a civil or commercial matter, and includes an award in proceedings on an arbitration if the award has become enforceable in the territory of origin in the same manner as a judgment given by a court in that territory;

(e) “judgment creditor” means the person in whose favour the judgment was given, and includes his executors, administrators, successors and assigns;

(f) “judgment debtor” means the person against whom the judgment was given and includes any person against whom the judgment is enforceable under the law of the territory of origin;

(g) “original court” in relation to any judgment means the court by which the judgment was given;

(h) “registering court” means a court to which an application for the registration of a judgment is made;

(i) “territory of origin” means the territory for which the original court was exercising jurisdiction.

PART II

SCOPE OF THE CONVENTION

ARTICLE II

1.Subject to the provisions of this Article, this Convention shall apply to any judgment given by a court of a Contracting State after the Convention enters into force and, for the purposes of Article IX, to any judgment given by a court of a third State which is party to the 1968 Convention.

2.This Convention shall not apply to

(a) orders for the periodic payment of maintenance;

(b) the recovery of taxes, duties or charges of a like nature or the recovery of a fine or penalty;

© judgments given on appeal from decisions of tribunals other than courts;

(d) judgments which determine

(i) the status or legal capacity of natural persons;

(ii) custody or guardianship of infants;

(iii) matrimonial matters;

(iv) succession to or the administration of the estates of deceased persons;

(v) bankruptcy, insolvency or the winding up of companies or other legal persons;

(vi) the management of the affairs of a person not capable of managing his own affairs.

3.Part III of this Convention shall apply only to a judgment whereby a sum of money is made payable.

4.This Convention is without prejudice to any other remedy available to a judgment creditor for the recognition and enforcement in one Contracting State of a judgment given by a court of the other Contracting State.

 

PART III

ENFORCEMENT OF JUDGMENTS

ARTICLE III

1.Where a judgment has been given by a court of one Contracting State, the judgment creditor may apply in accordance with Article VI to a court of the other Contracting State at any time within a period of six years after the date of the judgment (or, where there have been proceedings by way of appeal against the judgment, after the date of the last judgment given in those proceedings) to have the judgment registered, and on any such application the registering court shall, subject to such simple and rapid procedures as each Contracting State may prescribe and to the other provisions of this Convention, order the judgment to be registered.

2.In addition to the sum of money payable under the judgment of the original court including interest accrued to the date of registration, the judgment shall be registered for the reasonable costs of and incidental to registration, if any, including the costs of obtaining a certified copy of the judgment from the original court.

3.If, on an application for the registration of a judgment, it appears to the registering court that the judgment is in respect of different matters and that some, but not all, of the provisions of the judgment are such that if those provisions had been contained in separate judgments those judgments could properly have been registered, the judgment may be registered in respect of the provisions aforesaid but not in respect of any other provisions contained therein.

4.Subject to the other provisions of this Convention

(a) a registered judgment shall, for the purposes of enforcement, be of the same force and effect;

(b) proceedings may be taken on it; and

© the registering court shall have the same control over its enforcement,

as if it had been a judgment originally given in the registering court with effect from the date of registration.

 

PROCEDURES

ARTICLE VI

1.Any application for the registration in the United Kingdom of a judgment of a court of Canada shall be made

(a) in England and Wales, to the High Court of Justice;

(b) in Scotland, to the Court of Session;

© in Northern Ireland, to the High Court of Justice.

2.Any application for the registration in Canada of a judgment of a court of the United Kingdom shall be made

(a) in the case of a judgment relating to a matter within the competence of the Federal Court of Canada, to the Federal Court of Canada;

(b) in the case of any other judgment, to a court of a province or territory designated by Canada pursuant to Article XII.

[havinastella]

With thanks to Funky fox

[unclebulgaria67]

Thanks again for the insight.

 

So, when I contact the credit card companies to inform them that I can no longer make payments, how should I word the email? Is it really worth giving them my current address or should I just remind them that I am not a UK resident, I never held a UK citizenship and only had a TN national insurance number?

 

My goal is to start repaying the debt in 2014. It would also work in my favour if the debt is sold and I negotiate something with the new creditor?

 

My guess is that any correspondence they may send will go to a very old address and then just get returned to them back in the UK. They have my email address so will they just attempt to contact me via email?

 

Keep the letter simple. That you are a resident of Canada and have no plans on returning to the UK to reside. That following a change to your financial circumstances, that you are not in a position to continue making payments at present and will have to review your position in say 6 months to see how you are going to be able to meet any commitments

 

With debts, it is not possible to advise you where the debts will be at any point. I suspect that in 2014, that the debt will still be with the original creditor and they will be chasing, at whatever address they have for you. It may be some time before the debts are sold to a DCA. When they are with a DCA, with the added interest and any default charges added, then obviously the debt will have increased. If you are abroad and the know this is the case (see previous advice), in my opinion they may be more willing to accept a reduced offer, than if you were in the UK or they had a CCJ.

 

If they have an email address, they may use that. But under much UK legislation, it requires creditors to write to the last known address that they hold for you. So the chances are that they will write to whatever address was officially noted by them. Whoever is living at that house, may or may not return them to your creditors. Your creditors may not do anything with the returned letters.

 

Up to you what you want to do. Does not sound like you want to provide your Canadian address ? If this is the case, then you will have to accept not knowing what is going on with the debts.

[jamesbond1]

Hey Sahilian,

 

I'm curious as to know what route you have chosen. Feel free to send me a private message.

 

thanks

[unclebulgaria67]

Hey Sahilian,

 

I'm curious as to know what route you have chosen. Feel free to send me a private message.

 

thanks

 

They won't be able to, as you have not made enough posts for the site to allow you to get PM's. I think you have to have made 20 posts before the PM function is enabled.

[jamesbond1]

Oh.... OK then just post here if you don't mind...

[unclebulgaria67]

Oh.... OK then just post here if you don't mind...

 

If you come out of this thread you will be on page that shows all the threads that relate to overseas debts. Scroll up the page and on the left hand side of the screen it says Post new thread.

It is better to have your own thread, as one post leads to another and then you have many posts on someone elses thread which just confuses people.