CMD what to write or say??

[Mariachida]

Dear All

 

I finally sent my ET1 form to tribunal last Feb, and now I have a date for the CMD ( by phone in a week time). I am not sure on how to complete the document they ve sent me.

I thought that the issues where described in the ET1 form, i need to complete a document as example the question is : what are the complaints or juridictions raised in the claim ( I am a bit surprised it is already mentionned in the ET1 ( unfair dismisaal, discrimination and other)

what is a statuary questionnaire? do i need to answer already to " what the claimant seek by way of remedy? do i need to estimate the value of the claim? e.g 12 months salary for one year a bad treatment , loss of earning etc...

ET1 contains a summary of facts and refers to some documents ( e.g grievance, GP assessment of my health etc..) I want to send some documents ( hearing bundles) do I need to agree on the list of document with my former employer ?

 

I am not sure I really understand how to prepare myself for this CMD, do I need a solicitor?

I already have been informed that my former employer requested delay as their solicitor is busy.

this gives me some time. I am a foreigner so not used to this legal language and rules

 

regards

thank you for your help

 

mariachida

[becky2585]

Hi there

 

Don't panic - I've never once seen a Judge actually use the CMD agenda, even when it's been agreed and sent to the Tribunal in advance.

 

If you want to prepare so as not to be caught off guard then that's fine - but if the Respondent is legally represented, they'll be asked to take the lead with the legal issues.

 

The jurisdiction is for claims and the statutes they're pleased under - eg s94(?) era 1996 for unfair dismissal, s86 era for wrongful dismissal, s13 for unlawful deductions, etc.

 

A statutory questionnaire is sometimes served in discrimination cases.

 

What you primarily need to focus on is how many witnesses you are calling, your dates of unavailability for the final hearing and what you are claiming (eg unfair dismissal).

 

The judge will probably go easy on you as you don't have a representative, so don't worry!

[Mariachida]

thank you for your answer

 

I still need to complete the document sent by the tribunal ( CMD agenda), some questions are not easy to answer without the help of a solicitor.

my claims are : unfair dismissal, discrimination, "personal injury as I get highly stressed by the situation and I have health issues, and I ticked the box blow wistle, as I reported lack of compliance to the top management and the lack of support of my line managers.

 

I have no witness as i doubt that colleagues will appreciate to be invited in my case

 

What I have is a number of written documents, emails which I want to use to demonstrate that I have done my work, my absence due to high stress, the document from the gp or proof that my boss has made mistakes ( when interprating legal text which is important when you are in charge understanding legislation requirements) etc...I want to use the grievance document ( a report of 55 pages, grievance hearing and my comments ont he hearing as it was unproperly reflecting what was said. etc...many documents) - my former employer is one of the biggest company in UK...

so I know that it is a lost battle. they ve said that i was not meeting their standards after 5 years in the company.... they ve sent me a guard to make sure I was leaving the office rapidly, and this in front of colleagues...bad time!!

an interesting point is that one of the person i complained about, has left the company after being demoted...that person was the other expert in legislation..and my former boss. I went on maternity leave and the person that covered my maternity leave became my line manager.

 

so they might not invite him as a witness ...but everything could happen they have money and power....not me.

 

regards

[lilly of the valley]

Hi Marichida,

 

When does the CMD documents have to be in by? I may be able to assist you a little. I am not a solicitor but I have been down the road that you are now on.

 

 

L x

 

PS. Don't worry about the money and the power, trust me, you don't always need that.

[becky2585]

Don't forget the CMD is only for case management - ie the most efficient and fair way to manage the case to and through a full hearing. You may not even be asked about the background facts to the case, as its more for timing and legal issues.

[steampowered]

Please type out the exact wording of the questions you are having trouble with, and we can perhaps help you with those?

 

This is only the CMD. The CMD is just there to decide how the case should work - how much time the court needs, whether there are any issues with disclosure of documents, how many witnesses there should be and so on. The Tribunal won't actually decide your complaints at this stage so you do not need to be making detailed arguments or providing all your evidence. Your answers to the questions should be brief and clear.

 

I don't know the full details of your case, but as a general strategy I would avoid a "shotgun" approach where you just make every criticism you can think of. From what you have posted, it sounds like a whistleblowing claim for lack of support from management and a personal injury claim because the situation made you stressed would be hopeless claims (although feel free correct me if I am missing out important details), in which case you should focus on the unfair dismissal and discrimination elements.

[Mariachida]

thank you

 

i received a document with a number of questions to be completed before the CMD

 

If it was that simple, my employer should have accepted the date proposed, they have requested more time as the solicitor who knows about the case is already busy...!!

 

timing means what for you? I thought they wanted to check what were my claims against my employers

i thought the way we have to complete the ET1 should contain which legal issues we have: e.g. unfair dismissal, discrimination ( not clear for me the way questions are presented)

[steampowered]

Well what questions are you having trouble with? We cannot help you answer them unless you tell us exactly what they are.

 

Part of the idea of the CMD is to narrow the issues, because sometimes ET1s are hopelessly unclear and sometimes you agree things with the employer before trial. If you are alleging serious discrimination over a number of years, that will require a number of days at Tribunal whereas if you are making a straightforward unfair dismissal claim that would only require one day or perhaps less.

[Mariachida]

Thank you now I understand better what means the timing...

 

My questions are: do I need to send the bundle documents e.g. grievance documents, emails to HR, comment on girevance hearing, my appeal to dismissal etc... or do I wait that the judge ask for these documents?

Do I send the list of documents I want themt o look at ? or I send them with the CMd agenda to be completed

 

Do i need to agree with my former employer on the list of documents to be assessed ( I dont want to do so)

 

Do I need to estimate the level of compensation i want to? do i need to explain why i want this money or do i wait that the judge ask me these questions?

thank you

[steampowered]

If the Tribunal has ordered you to do these things, then yes you must do them. All of them. The legal system is set up to ensure some fairness between the parties. The idea is that both sides have to give each other the evidence they want to rely on and the claimant has to state what he is asking for so that the parties have a chance to settle the dispute. There aren't really any valid excuses for refusing to agree a list of documents or refusing to provide a statement of what you are asking for.

 

If the employer is legally repersented, their solicitors would normally prepare a draft list of documents and draft bundle index and would send them to you to seek your agreement. If you are in doubt then contact them and ask.

 

If the Tribunal has simply asked you to provide a statement of what you are asking for, then you simply need to state it. You do not need to explain it as well (you will explain yourself in your witness statement and at the hearing).

[Mariachida]

Hello

 

 

thank you

fine for me, so I will send the list of documents to the tribunal and will inform at the same time my former employer. I have hundreds of pages of docs..will see what they will think of

 

for the time being my former employer has just ask to reschedule the CMD for later on...

I doubt that my employer will propose a settlement...

thank you

[steampowered]

You would be surprised about the settlement point. Employers generally cannot recover their legal costs from the employee, even if the claim fails. Many employers will offer to settle even cases they think are weak to avoid incurring legal costs. When the employer knows what compesation you are actually asking for then it is much easier to start negotiating.

[Mariachida]

hello

 

thank you

 

It worked for a big big company, well known which has probably a legal team and maybe in house solicitor

I tought they would propose me settlement before the CMD...which is next week...they have tried nothing since they received the ET1. For me ( I might be wrong) they would have prefer to avoid CMD hearing...or they really don t care about money for their solicitor. They know that the fees for my solicitor could be a problem for me...

how much i can ask is crucial, it has to be realistic...as I am a foreigner , in my country we would have a different approach...company try to avoid cases at the employment tribunal.

 

i think i had a terrible year which finished by dismissal ( me leaving to site with a security guards in front of colleagues what an humiliation). and really bad impact on my health. my claims are: unfair dismissal, discrimination and health issues due to work situation, tick the box blowwistle (I wrote in my reports that products were not fully complaint to relevant regulations, some teams refusing to change their process due to the lack of resources etc.. and having no support form my managers, so i escalate the problem,to the higher hierarchy... For colleagues to do so meant the end of my career ...) I will use thes reports in my CMD docs/bundles. I think already putting a grievance was the end of my career....some colleagues refused to come with me to the grievance hearing as witness..to risky!!

 

i would ask the maximum: maybe a year of salary, plus what I lost when i was off sick for stress. and what they took from my salary when they dismissed me

maybe it is unrealistic...maybe not...

 

if the case can become public then it could be bad advert and competent autorities could be interest to check compliance...which could cost them a lot!! .otherwise I don t think the fee for a solicitor is a problem for them

 

by the way, one of my manager has left the company but before he has been demoted ( just before I was fired)...which could explain why he left... this makes me happy a bit!! he was promoted then demoted within a year!!

now the company has no real experts on specific regulations...

[steampowered]

At a very basic level, your statement of remedies should include the following:

 

Unfair dismissal basic award: Set out the calculation according to the statutory formula

Unfair dismissal compensatory award: Set out your loss of wages. This is the time until you can reasonably be expected to get a new job. It depends on the circumstances but six to 12 months is very much at the higher end of the scale.

Mitigation: Subtract the amounts you get in JSA.

Discrimination loss of feelings: Set out what you think this is worth by reference to the Vento guidelines.

 

You will need to do some googling to work out what I am talking about. But if you have a solicitor already why is he not helping with this?

[Mariachida]

Hello

 

Thank you very much

many words ( never heard about statuary formula or JSA), i did not understand clearly but will look for information ( don t forget it is technical jargon and i m a foreigner) :

I don t have a solicitor yet, knowing the fees I have indeed contacted one, requested advises, but it was for the ET1.

now as i tought the company might have proposed a settlement...I am preparng the CMD as much as I can so that if I need again the solicitor I would be more prepare. If the solicitor takes one hour to explain me just what is a CMD etc..then an hour to clarify some points etc...as I have no job yet..i m single with a young child .I am saving the money.

truly i wanted to close this chapter of my life as i really had bad time...but i have to fight...to get back to sleep peacefully...

[Mariachida]

thanks you

I found out waht was JSA or the Vento guideline...

 

it is so complicated...

[steampowered]

There is a template Schedule of Loss in my post here: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?386099-i-require-some-help-and-information-about-Constructive-Dismissal&p=4185046#post4185046

[Mariachida]

Hello

I have a question: do I need to send the documents to the respondent too? or just the list I refer to?

Do I need to send the schedule of loss directly to the respondent or the tribunal will forward it?

In the remedy: is it enought to write: compensation

If nothing is yet agreed between parties ( documents, witness etc) is that acceptable? i dont see myself communicating with my former employee!!

it is asked if party requires further guidance on any matter ?? yes I do, what kind of guidance they could provide?

they ask if we need adjustment? what that means?

i am calculating the loss of earning, if I understand weel there is a weekly pay cap ( 400), if i win more per week, i should calculate the basic award with number of year worked *400, not my real weekly salary

i did not find a job yet, i doubt i will find one rapidly, should i ask for 12 months or more

i am not that young with a young child. and single, so not easy to find a job in my area with my expertise.

I decided to move back to my country to find some support. so for the time being i am unemployed, no benefit and struggling to find a nursery, and sorting my admin papers. If i live abroad what could happen with the tribunal? I did not mention yet that I moved abroad as i thought that my former company will take advantage of it...

thank you

thank you

[Mariachida]

hello

another question, six months before being dismissed, I asked HR for a solution as the abd situation at work was impacting dramatically my health and well being. HR proposed me to leave. as i refused the comprise agreement I had to pay the solicitor. I was back to work knowing that they will find a way to get rid of me sooner than later.

the grievance ( hundred pages ) bought me some months within the company as they needed to investigate the case...

is this fact important for the tribunal? or can I claim fees for the solicitor, I had to pay the solicitor before returning back to work. I worked home but it was as if I was not part of the company as noone was answering my emails even my boss. But when i was back to work he asked me why i did not progress on my objectives!! no shame!! before i was formerly dismissed I was not invited in meetings!! anyway..since i was back from maternity leave i felt excluded and complained about it...is that part of discrimination in my claim?

[Mariachida]

hello

thank you I started to complete the schedule of loss. Do I send it to the tribunal only or also to my former employer?

i moved back to my country as I was so depressed and needed support ( even the OHES doctor from my former company advised me to find support when he saw how bad I was) , therefore I receive no JSA for the time being..I closed all my admin papers in UK. do i need to inform the tribunal...? I fear that my former employer will take advantage of it...

do i need to explain how i calculate compensation e.g.18000 for personal injury ( stress work related - see off sick note, note from the GP etc) Do I ask my doctor to come as a witness?

or my family?

i was not allowed to visit my family even i felt really bad and i wanted my daughter to see the family during the summer...it was refused. is that part of personal injury? or injury of feelings?, or just discrimination as everybody can go on holidays..but me!! everybody can work from home but me...

 

thank you

[steampowered]

You need to send the Schedule of Loss to your Tribunal and your former employer. You need to do the same with all the other documents you were ordered to provide.

 

If you are successful in showing unfair dismissal, the employer will almost certainly say that you should have claimed JSA which would reduce your loss, and accordingly this should be deducted from the compensatory part of your unfair dismissal award. The employer will also say you should have reduced your loss by taking proper steps to find another job, and thus the period for which you are awarded loss of wages should be until the time at which you probably would have found another job if you had been looking properly. You could try to contest this by explaining you felt you needed to move back to your country. The employer will make these arguments regardless of whether you send them the Schedule of Loss, and the amounts you are claiming for will come out at the hearing, so do not be tempted to go through the pointless exercising of trying to hide the Schedule from them.

 

You simply need to state the amounts you are claiming. It is just a statement, argument about what you are claiming will come at the hearing. If there is some sensible basis for your calculation you could very briefly mention it (e.g. £x injury to feelings as being in the middle of the middle Vento band). If you want to be taken seriously you should obtain a medical report.

 

The stuff about the holiday is injury of feelings, at most, if you could prove that these were discriminatory actions resulting from you being treated less favourably than other employees because of a protected characteristic such as race or gender. If your holiday requests were denied because the employer just doesn't like you that is not discrimination. I am not going to comment further because you have only provided small snapshots of information about your case, this is fine if you are just asking questions about ET procedure but if you want advice on the merits of your case then you are going to have to tell us the full story.

[Mariachida]

You need to send the Schedule of Loss to your Tribunal and your former employer. You need to do the same with all the other documents you were ordered to provide.

 

If you are successful in showing unfair dismissal, the employer will almost certainly say that you should have claimed JSA which would reduce your loss, and accordingly this should be deducted from the compensatory part of your unfair dismissal award. The employer will also say you should have reduced your loss by taking proper steps to find another job, and thus the period for which you are awarded loss of wages should be until the time at which you probably would have found another job if you had been looking properly. You could try to contest this by explaining you felt you needed to move back to your country. The employer will make these arguments regardless of whether you send them the Schedule of Loss, and the amounts you are claiming for will come out at the hearing, so do not be tempted to go through the pointless exercising of trying to hide the Schedule from them.

 

 

You simply need to state the amounts you are claiming. It is just a statement, argument about what you are claiming will come at the hearing. If there is some sensible basis for your calculation you could very briefly mention it (e.g. £x injury to feelings as being in the middle of the middle Vento band). If you want to be taken seriously you should obtain a medical report.

 

The stuff about the holiday is injury of feelings, at most, if you could prove that these were discriminatory actions resulting from you being treated less favourably than other employees because of a protected characteristic such as race or gender. If your holiday requests were denied because the employer just doesn't like you that is not discrimination. I am not going to comment further because you have only provided small snapshots of information about your case, this is fine if you are just asking questions about ET procedure but if you want advice on the merits of your case then you are going to have to tell us the full story.

 

I don t want to hide something to my former employer, i think it is strange to send to them list of documents, etc..what i hide was that i moved country....

this is fine I will detail what i claim in the schedule of loss ( loss of earning less what i received as JSA in UK and in my country)

I received my JSA two weeks after being dismissed...as they paid me my 3 months notice i thought i would received JSA only at the end of the 3 months. so i did not go directly to jobcenter. I lost my job 5 months ago!!

mitigation of loss: I have applied to job offers...but not yet succesfull I kept a record on all my applications, answers, emails for phone interviews - This is the recession and I am quite senior with a young girl. when you move you need to find a nursery etc...not so easy too. for the time being i receive nothing as it is taking time to settle from one country to another one, the paper work is a nightmare.

. I received a job offer ( only one) but the job requires a lot of travel ( over 60%) all over the world. it is hard choice for me as my daughter is quite young.

if i moved it is also to find support from my family I felt a bit destroyed after a year of war.

 

personal injury: i have been off sick for stress a number of time. I had health issues after given birth ( serious health issue so the stress did not help)

I have a medical assessment from the GP of the company who advise me to find support...rapidly

 

holidays: I am a foreginer with a young child, i was not allowed to take holidays...as i needed to finish a report . my manager went on holidays just after he read the report, if it was that urgent i would assume...i would have taken actions following the recommendations in my report. i read it and stated that it was so bad that i shoudl be dismissed. I wrote a report when i joined the company...it was my first test...i will use the reports and my comments in the bundle. my manager has made a lot of mistakes on how to interpret regulation...in the grievance outcome they ve said that indeed he made mistakes but he had progressed...impressive!! this manager joined the company top cover my maternity leave, he was not fully expert in all regulations i covered...i might be the only one to know and his manager ( my former manager) who helped him to progress rapidly!! I complained against the both..one has left in February after being demoted which pleased me. the new director of the team advised me to leave the group...in our first and only face to face meeting. since i am back from maternity leave i have been exlcuded from meetings discussions and not allowed to go to some workshops I use to go.. I was not allowed to work from home as i used to. before I left on maternity leave i also complain to hr about my manager. ..so not really surprised of what happen when i came back...

my managers did not support me when some team leaders refused to follow my recommendations...and a year after i escalated this to higher management...telling them that produts were not complaint to regulation..etc..mistakes of my boss etc..

they fired me but they might have also problems due to my grievance report ...my colleagues use to say it was a lots battle and a grievance was the end of a career..contacting high level management was even worse...this is true but...i bothered them a bit as important top vp of the company was in charge with the grievance appeal...

[honeybee13]

Hello mariachida.

 

I've moved a couple of posts you put on an old thread here onto this one. You were asking about who to send the schedule of loss to.

 

Please ask all your questions on this thread.

 

My best, HB

[steampowered]

I don t want to hide something to my former employer, i think it is strange to send to them list of documents, etc..what i hide was that i moved country....

this is fine I will detail what i claim in the schedule of loss ( loss of earning less what i received as JSA in UK and in my country)

I received my JSA two weeks after being dismissed...as they paid me my 3 months notice i thought i would received JSA only at the end of the 3 months. so i did not go directly to jobcenter. I lost my job 5 months ago!!

mitigation of loss: I have applied to job offers...but not yet succesfull I kept a record on all my applications, answers, emails for phone interviews - This is the recession and I am quite senior with a young girl. when you move you need to find a nursery etc...not so easy too. for the time being i receive nothing as it is taking time to settle from one country to another one, the paper work is a nightmare.

. I received a job offer ( only one) but the job requires a lot of travel ( over 60%) all over the world. it is hard choice for me as my daughter is quite young.

if i moved it is also to find support from my family I felt a bit destroyed after a year of war.

 

This is very good. You should include job applications and so on in the list of documents, because they prove that you have been trying to mitigate your loss. Your employer may still challenge whether you have been trying hard enough to find more work, all you can really do is explain yourself at the hearing and point to the applications you have made.

 

personal injury: i have been off sick for stress a number of time. I had health issues after given birth ( serious health issue so the stress did not help)

I have a medical assessment from the GP of the company who advise me to find support...rapidly

Into the bundle it goes. Remember that the Tribunal only has jurisdiction to award damages for personal injury as part of a discrimination claim - this stuff is entirely reliant on proving discrimination.

 

The other stuff about holidays and so on is noted. The relevant protected characteristic is pregnancy. I think I have answered your questions, I am not sure if you were looking for further advice about this? m not sure if you wanted specific advice about this? Just be careful not to engage in a "mud-slinging exercise", your legal claims are unfair dismissal and discrimination so you do need to link any accusations you make to those claims.

[Mariachida]

hello

 

thank you very much.

I put in the ET1 : unfair dismissal, discrimination, and other . I might mix things as it is quiteemotionnal...and the judge wants facts proof etc..

i tick the box blowistle.

 

anyway in the bundle of documents: i will list the grievance docs, letters to HR complaining about my boss and my work situation

what do you think about the director advising me to leave the group? or my manager sending me kindly job advert form other company?

if i start to add the job description I apply to, together with the reports I wrote, commented my manager assessment, the grievance appeal , hearing etc...minutes etc. I have hundreds of pages...close to thousand..

 

i have some time to complete the CMD "questionnaire" which is complex for me...questions will arise during this process

 

thank you ( now my daughter is after so...)

nice day

regards