Sent identical loan agreements one with PPI shown one without. Intentional deceit ?

[swiftkidd]

I first created this thread on MSE a week ago but received very few replies and attracted ppi forum trolls who defend the bank claiming what possible motive could their PPI team have for being deceitful.

 

This is a complaint I've been handling on behalf of my mum against Barclay's and requested a subject access request using a template letter. I'm yet to start the official complaint process

 

The contents of the SAR included (4) unsigned loan agreements with some including a loan settlement statement attached and (1) loan settlement statement on it's own for the 2nd Barclayloan but was unaccompanied by a loan agreement.

 

A book of historic bank statements dating back to 1998

 

.Data protection cover letter

 

.Prequel print/PPI prequal - A table of columns detailing current and previous products taken out such as current accounts, loans and credit cards which includes columns 'Account PPI Flag', 'Arrears Flag' and 'BRU Flag' showing a simple Y, U or N to indicate if PPI was/is present.

 

.A 40 page booklet with a cover page titled 'Data Subject Access Return Service Point ODP' contains a glossary of acronyms & abbreviations most of the pages are structured the same with personal details a lot of which shows 'no data held'.

 

on the PPI Prequal it shows a 'U' for unconfirmed on "Barclayloan protected" account opened on & closed paid in full on which I have the statement of payments (loan settlement statement) and a Y with premium present under one for a "Barclaycard Visa" with PPI present start date .

 

All other loans had 'N' to indicate no ppi was sold (5 loans disclosed in total, with 3 being started in 2011/2012 so satisfied PPI was unlikely pushed/sold) other 2 date back 10 to 15 years yet when visiting our local branch we enquired if PPI had ever been sold and the system immediately flagged a Barclayloan that had PPI sold despite the PPI Prequel stating otherwise. She even printed out a copy of the loan agreement which looks identical to the one received in the SAR except this version has an additional column showing 'Premium Loan next to the 'Cash Loan' plus included addtional columns under the T&C's about payment protection insurance.

 

Neither loan agreement is signed for so is not a copy of the original loan agreements plus the in branch copy did not included a loan settlement statement but the SAR has it enclosed in the loan agreement.

 

In branch loan agreements with the additional column displaying ppi:

 

Amount of Loan ................ .......... Cash Loan ............. Premium Loan

Total Charge For Credit................. £########............. £######

Total amount payable .....................£####### ...............£#######

Monthly repayment ........................£####..................... £####

Number of Repayments .................£### .......................£###

Your monthly repayments will start one month after your loan is drawn. Cash Loan

 

 

PPI Preqel:

 

Product Class ...................... Product Code ............Account PPI Flag

LOANS .................................BARCLAYLOAN .................. 'U'

.................... .......................PROTECTED

 

LOANS ................................BARCLAYLOAN ........... ........ 'N'

..........................................UNPROTEC TED

 

It states on the Prequel Print

 

"Please note in some cases, such as Mortgages the report will detail the account numbers, but may show with a 'U' against the product. This 'U' stands for uncomfirmed as out system search as yet cannot identify whether there was a PPI sale for a small number of products such as Mortgages.

In these instances, if you believe there was PPI on the product or you believe there may have been, then please proceed with a claim. Upon receipt of your claim the PPI team will undertake a manual search of our systems to identify if any premiums under PPI have been paid on that product. All premiums paid will be taken into account dealing with your claim.

 

Never had a mortgage with Barclays so is not a mortgage, and did not flag up in local branch which I suspect their systems are unable to detect also.. but this unconfirmed Barclayloan is the one that came without the loan agreement and only have the loan settlement statement so seems if they're being obstructive and deceitful concealing a loan agreement (no deletion certifcate or reason given why it's not supplied) and told all other Barclay loans did not flag up yet our local branch system had managed to flag a Barclayloan (unprotected) immediately. She did not disclose or mention about Barclay's systems not being able to detect a small number of products ie unconfirmed Barclayloan but did give the number for Barclays in dublin to find out more about Barclaycard's ppi

Edited March 28, 2013 by swiftkidd

[citizenB]

I will alert the PPI guys to your thread.

[citizenB]

If you believe that your SAR has not been fully complied with you should send them a further letter requesting that they dig deeper. You could perhaps mention that having visited the branch, they appear to have provided information that appears to be missing from the Subject Access Request, which leads you to believe that they have not fully complied and you are now requesting that they do this.

 

List the items that you believe are missing

 

Give them a further 14 days

 

Then you have the choice of either the Information Commissioner or to issue a claim in the county court for non compliance !

[ims21]

Following on from citizenB's advice, you should be able to establish the position with PPI on the agreement where you have two differing documents.

 

Have a look at the monthly repayment figure on each of them. The one which quotes PPI on it should have higher total monthly repayment than the other one.

 

Then check against the statements of account to see exactly what the monthly repayments were that were actually made.

 

If the actual repayments made were the higher figure then that would indicate that PPI was included in the loan.

[swiftkidd]

If you believe that your SAR has not been fully complied with you should send them a further letter requesting that they dig deeper. You could perhaps mention that having visited the branch, they appear to have provided information that appears to be missing from the Subject Access Request, which leads you to believe that they have not fully complied and you are now requesting that they do this.

 

List the items that you believe are missing

 

Give them a further 14 days

 

Then you have the choice of either the Information Commissioner or to issue a claim in the county court for non compliance !

 

Hey,

 

Thanks for the advise and not to doubt the forums member's but is this a legal entitlement I can enforce

 

as some of the advise given and read from MSE suggest they're not legally obliged to send me any information dating back further than 6 years

 

so even though they've provided some information going back further doe's this exempt them from legally having to provide a certificate of deletion

if the loan agreement exceeds 6 year limitation as is the case with the Barclayloan that dates back to early 2000's and closed in 2005 ?

 

They sent me a loan settlement statement with no loan agreement.

 

I might attempt to attain it from my local branch as they seemed surprisingly assistful as on several occasions

my mum said why not just go into the local branch and ask which loans had ppi on (as she seems to get along really well with one of the loan advisers)

and was going down their anyway claiming it would make things easier

 

but I was under the impression he/she wouldn't have the permissions or authorization to assist customers in their ppi complaints)

as I heard most branches have dedicated ppi set ups

 

so I advised against it in fear they would hi jack and take over the complaint process (She ignored my advise)

but another employee who appeared to be listening in suggested it was unnecessary to go the extent of requesting a SAR

 

and that we could have just came down and handled it all their.

 

That's when she made a comment and asked if we had used a template letter from MSE which made my mum feel embarrassed

 

so she denied using it and she stated the SAR's and Martin Lewis was not accurate in their requests/sar demands and that most of the requested information was unnecessary anyway.

 

Yet if I hadn't requested a SAR it would be unclear to me which loans had ppi on. Which I'm still somewhat unaware as it only states one loan has unconfirmed ppi.. and has no loan agreement just a loan settlement statement and a Barclaycard Visa which has ppi on.

 

And of course now it's been discovered from our local branch that one of the 5 loans has had ppi and provided the loan agreement (minus the loan settlement statement) which we have from the SAR.

 

My main issue is they've sent out the acceptance/loan agreements but not one has any signed signature so how doe's this make it an agreement ?

 

Presumably they should have the loan agreement with my mother's signature on showing she accepted and agreed to the T&C's of the loan

and is obviously quiet concerning they're able to produce two identical copy's one with ppi and one without with additional info under the T&C's stating

 

"Money-back guarantee if you change your mind:

If after taking out Barclayloan protection and reading the policy, you do not want to continue with the insurance please return you policy to us.

 

Please do this within 30 days of receiving the policy.

 

As long as you have not made a claim, nor intend making one, we will cancel your policy and give you your money back.

 

After 30 days, if you cancel, any refund of premium will reduce throughout the term of the loan"

 

So how do I know which agreement was sent out at the point of sale if no signature is on either ?

[dx100uk]

there are several on going cases here with Barclays whereby after continually being pressed

 

they have found all the info back to year one with them.

 

as for MSE - i'd rather not comment - most of the members are a waste of space that comment on PPI issues

 

dx

[citizenB]

If they have not provided documents with your Mother's signature on them, then they are probably "Reconstructed".

 

It is the banks who have decided that they do not have to retain information further back than 6 years. The Information Commissioner seems to sit on the fence giving no true direction one way or the other, preferring to rely on a weak response that infomation need only be kept for "as long as necessary".

 

Money laundering and Tax laws require that financial information is to be kept for 6 years AFTER the financial relationship has ended.

 

It is interesting to note, that prior to around 2006 /2007 at the height of the Bank Charges reclaiming frenzy, the banks were able to provide data back to the beginning of time. When they believed they were going to be asked to pay redress by way of returning charges they started to dispose of the data, which meant that anyone who was making these reclaims had to prove that charges were added to the account.

 

Speed for disposal picked up around the PPI reclaiming, again many banks are now requiring that the claimant prove that PPI was added and how far back.

 

After they lost their battle against the FSA in respect of PPI reclaiming - the FSA required banks to contact all their customers who had PPI on loans etc, even if the customer had not made a claim against them.

 

It does not appear they have done this, one imagines that there could be a lot of PPI victims out there who are going to suffer because of the Bank's sudden desire to shred data.

[swiftkidd]

Following on from citizenB's advice, you should be able to establish the position with PPI on the agreement where you have two differing documents.

 

Have a look at the monthly repayment figure on each of them. The one which quotes PPI on it should have higher total monthly repayment than the other one.

 

Then check against the statements of account to see exactly what the monthly repayments were that were actually made.

 

If the actual repayments made were the higher figure then that would indicate that PPI was included in the loan.

 

I've checked both loan agreement's monthly repayments against the loan settlement statement and the book of historic bank statements and shows the lowest monthly repayment which would seem no payment protection insurance was taken or paid for ?

 

Being that they've provided me with reconstructed loan agreements and not actual copies of the original agreements. Doe's that legally comply with my SAR ?. I've said before they look very basic and generic and not satisfied with the provided information but accepted as 3 of her loans was taken out very recently (2011/2012) it is very unlikely to have been sold with ppi.

 

It was also noted by the loan adviser she was capable of searching much further back than the early 2000's loan agreement she printed out but required the files was unarchived which would take some time so mutually agreed not to proceed.

 

Is it worth me doing an experian credit check (free trail) to see her full credit history as she's taken out credit with capital one and has a mortgage with another provider but also it should show if Barclay's has missed other loans out ?

 

It's a little confusing as there's a section on Barclay's provided Pre-Qual - PPI under 'Credit Card Details' which shows several columns including 'product, card account number, card number, account open date, account close date, account status code, primary card holder flag, account ppi flag and ppi start date'

 

It list's 5 Barclaycard Visa's and 1 Barclaycard Mastercard with only 1 visa displaying a 'Y' under account ppi flag (ppi start date 1992) (Account open date late 2000) with all other cards displaying an 'N' in the account ppi flag but displaying the same ppi start date as the 3 other Visa accounts. They all have different card account numbers, card numbers, account open date and account close date with some accounts not being opened several years after the ppi start date 1992.

Edited March 28, 2013 by swiftkidd

[dazza12]

as for MSE - i'd rather not comment - most of the members are a waste of space that comment on PPI issues

 

dx

 

I agree - very nasty attitude from a small clique of posters, led by an IFA who has no doubt had his butt kicked from selling inappropriate policies. Seem to be intent on talking as many people out of complaining as they can, and if they can't find anything wrong with their post, pick on the fact that they used the word claim instead of complain!

[citizenB]

Agreements are covered under different legislation and whilst it seems to us to be totally bizarre, they have to be requested by way of the CCA 1974 request for which you will need to include the statutory fee of £1.00.

 

The companies/banks are under no obligation to supply a copy of an agreement in response to a Subject Access Request !

[dx100uk]

I agree - very nasty attitude from a small clique of posters, led by an IFA who has no doubt had his butt kicked from selling inappropriate policies. Seem to be intent on talking as many people out of complaining as they can, and if they can't find anything wrong with their post, pick on the fact that they used the word claim instead of complain!

 

yes that very person total PRATT!!

 

dx

[swiftkidd]

Agreements are covered under different legislation and whilst it seems to us to be totally bizarre, they have to be requested by way of the CCA 1974 request for which you will need to include the statutory fee of £1.00.

 

The companies/banks are under no obligation to supply a copy of an agreement in response to a Subject Access Request !

 

Hi,

 

What chances do you reckon they will have that original loan agreement from 1997 ?, I got my mum to go back down the local branch to ask the adviser for a copy of the loan agreement (a reconstructed copy) but she stated she wasn't able to go back that far and advised we fill out the FSA questionnaire complaint and they will investigate and sort it all out on their side. I suspect it was the system search issue or my mum not providing information on the loan settlement statement to narrow the search.

 

I'm not comfortable entrusting the bank to take care of it and would prefer to know the terms of the original loan agreement in order to provide an accurate complaint so it doe's not undermine what is said if it's rejected and referred to the Financial Ombudsman Service.

 

I think the problem is she's had loans with Barclay's in the past but cannot remember which loan had the ppi on, she also told the adviser about the previous loan not having ppi on despite it being flagged. I don't think she properly explained to her how I checked ie the repayments on the loan settlement statement from the SAR and the historic book of bank statements and she proceeded to explain that some ppi policy's come as a single premium payment which I've checked and no lump sum was taken out at the start of the loan but she advised to put in a complaint anyway.

 

I've advised her NOT to as I'm confidant it's not had ppi on and feel it will undermine her legitimate complaint and/or look as if we're an opportunist or completely clueless complainer I think she is frustrated that I've taken so long to proceed with this complaint but I wasn't happy to till I was confidant and knew what I was doing but her friend at work recently received a phone call from his bank and 8 weeks later received £3500 redress) I've tried explaining the circumstances would have been different etc but also now Barclay's have written to my brother to invite him to complain so she doesn't understand why it's taken me so long to proceed with her complaint.

 

I think I should request the original loan agreement for the unconfirmed loan (1997) that came with a loan settlement statement but no loan agreement. Maybe someone on here is able to give an educated guess judging by the amount borrowed, APR and the monthly repayments to see if it seems like an additional fee was being paid to ppi.

 

Accept that there is no ppi on the loan that has differing reconstructed loan agreements and do not complain.

 

Then get her to call Barclays Insurance Dublin and provide them with all her previous addresses (Aprox 5) to check the credit card section on the prequal. one is flagged as having ppi and is an active current Barclaycard so what information do I need in regards to that ?

[dazza12]

yes that very person total PRATT!!

 

dx

 

Sorry to go a bit off topic, but I thought I'd highlight one of the worst examples of the 'help' that you get on that forum. And the offence that they feel as soon as someone actually helps a poster!

 

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4569911

 

It's a shame really, as some parts of that forum (together with CAG) have some very helpful people, being damaged by the clique of 3 posters that like to puff out their chests and bully everyone.

[swiftkidd]

Sorry to go a bit off topic, but I thought I'd highlight one of the worst examples of the 'help' that you get on that forum. And the offence that they feel as soon as someone actually helps a poster!

 

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4569911

 

It's a shame really, as some parts of that forum (together with CAG) have some very helpful people, being damaged by the clique of 3 posters that like to puff out their chests and bully everyone.

 

It may just be coincidence but I'm pretty sure they only post monday to fridays but I wonder who's paying them