Car Blocked in By Bailiff - business rates debt

[comebackjimmy]

Hi All

 

Just a quick and mild incident but would be interested in comment and opinion.

 

I was parked in a family member's drive when a bailiff called to collect unpaid business rates from another property which the council is not going to get as the business is bust (ironically by the same council).

 

My brother opened the door and when he found out who it was he called me to the door to sort it out as I have a bit more confidence in these matters.

 

I told the bailiff we would not sign anything, would not give him any money and would not be granting him legal entry. He was a bit unhappy but could not do much about it.

 

As it happened I was leaving so I went out to my car. When I tried to move it he said he was seizing it to pay the debt. I told him it was mine and not my brothers and attempted to drive away. He reversed his car to block my path and said he was going to clamp it.

 

I told him he could do so but I would take on his company for obstructing my lawful movement of my property. He said since I knew so much of the law I should know he has a right to seize the car. If I could prove it was mine he would let me go. I pointed out that the log book was elsewhere but that would not conclusively prove the car was mine, just that I was the keeper.

 

In the end he pulled away and I was able to get on with things at a cost of no more than five minutes of time.

 

Clearly the guy was bluffing. He was in a car so un-likley to be carrying a clamp and was going to have to stay there for quite a while if a clamper was being sent for. So other CAGers should note that. Clearly he did not want to hang around.

 

My question is though, what rights does he have to detain my car and what rights do I have to stop him detaining the car?

 

Also, do I have any claim against his firm?

 

Has he committed any criminal offence by obstructing me?

 

All comments, anecdotes, opinion and such like welcome.

Edited March 27, 2013 by comebackjimmy
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[citizenB]

He didnt have any right whatsoever to detain your car.

 

Others will be along soon to advise what you can do

[brassnecked]

What bailiff company was this? He has no right whatsoever to clamp or obstruct you, nor discuss the debt with you, so he may wekll have breached data protection.

[comebackjimmy]

It was Constant & Co in Bedfordshire.

 

He was answered at the door by my brother who is the debtor. It was he who asked me to discuss the debt with the bailiff. The bailiff was therefore given permission to discuss it with me so I am comfortable no data protection breach was made.

 

I handle this sort of thing for my brother as I have helped him in his business over the last few years and business being what it is I have become somewhat adept at these matters with the help of CAG of course!

[brassnecked]

It was Constant & Co in Bedfordshire.

 

He was answered at the door by my brother who is the debtor. It was he who asked me to discuss the debt with the bailiff. The bailiff was therefore given permission to discuss it with me so I am comfortable no data protection breach was made.

I handle this sort of thing for my brother as I have helped him in his business over the last few years and business being what it is I have become somewhat adept at these matters with the help of CAG of course!

 

OK in which case as he knew you were not the debtor, he was a class one muppet thinking he could have your motor away, for the debt he knew wasn't yours.

[comebackjimmy]

I agree up to a point.

 

But he only has our words for it to say who we are and for all he knew I was my brother taking away a seizable asset. Having said that my car is (very obviously) 13 years old and the bailiff himself said it would not make enough to nearly cover the debt.

[brassnecked]

I agree up to a point.

 

But he only has our words for it to say who we are and for all he knew I was my brother taking away a seizable asset. Having said that my car is (very obviously) 13 years old and the bailiff himself said it would not make enough to nearly cover the debt.

In which case he knew it wouldn't be worth seizing, and he was going into bully mode, unfortunately for him, you had him sussed

[renegadeimp]

If he tried to do that on my drive, i'd just use my landrover to "gently push" his vehicle away. He's on my property, so i guarantee i'll use whatever methods i see fit to move him.

 

 

On topic: Bailiffs lie. It's number 1 in their handbook.

[comebackjimmy]

Renegadeimp, I thought about ramming him but although my car is old now it has been very good to me and intend to keep it until it literally falls apart. I am not prepared to impale my beautiful trashmobile on some dickwood bailiff's brand new mondeo-like, tempting though the idea fleatingly was. But it would have been an honourable death for the old girl!

[tomtubby]

The time to make a complaint would be IF he had actually levied upon the car.

 

If a complaint was made, the bailiff would almost certainly refute what you are saying and would merely advise the local authority that he believed that YOU were the debtor and that as YOUR car was on the drive that he could assume the car was yours. The council would support the bailiff ( they nearly always do).

 

It is important however to check what fees have been applied to the account for this visit.....

 

As a levy was NOT made the fee should have been just £24.50 for "attending to levy" (where no levy was made).

[comebackjimmy]

Thanks Tomtubby

 

You deserve the back story so here it is.

 

My brother bought a business in 2004 which had over two acres of land. The council were all over him like a rash the moment he got on the site and tried to wrap him up in planning issues. At first he tried to comply but then it turned out the council got their planning decision wrong and he was not required to do things to nearly the extent they said he did.

 

The following years were spent in legal wrangle that led to a public enquiry where the main points about the development were won by our side at a cost of over £25,000 and the effective financial destruction of the business. At that point I wrote a long letter of complaint to the council covering around ten points in their conduct.

 

As a coup de grace the valuation agency came on site and upped the business rates by twenty times!

 

My brother was forced to throw in the towel and sold the site at a stonking loss.

 

The council pursued the new and completely unaffordable rates. The first we knew of bailiff involvement was when they arrived at his house with two identical letters but for different amounts relating to two different tax years. These were the standard bailiff "second" letter I have come to know.

 

I thought I would complain to the council as they had attempted to double charge for a single visit and were charging the second charge not the first charge and were thus incompetent as they had not come for the "first" visit. While I was at it I did a FOI request and asked them chapter and verse about their management of bailiffs.

 

I got quite a lot of material back and it also turned out that the "first" visit had gone to the original business according to them. I struggle to believe it as the council were notified by me of my brother's home address at the time he left the business in case they wanted to make something of it. Additionally the council were well aware of the business collapse and the inability of my brother to pay the figure, even if he was willing which he is not. Therefore why they bothered with bailiffs is a mystery.

 

This last visit, a third one, was somewhat unexpected by us as they normally try twice and go back to say they cant collect leaving the council to take alternative action. I think this third visit was an attempt by the council to do two visits at the same address or may simply be vindictive.

 

Had the council been prepared to admit to their own planning errors at the start and work with my brother to build his business it would now be in a position to be employing twenty or more people, to pay local and national taxes and would be a nice and needed amenity to the local people.

 

Anyway that is the story.

 

We are fairly well clued up on what the bailiffs can and cant do with the excellent resources of this site to educate ourselves. The council will not be getting a penny as there is none, and no equity anywhere. Any fees the bailiffs or anyone else want to charge are therefore irrelevant to us so they can type what they like into their systems as it is their paper and their hard disks.

 

The council may well take the next step of summoning my brother to court and threatening him with imprisonment. It is probably the only step they have left. If that happens and the story comes out it is unlikely a magistrate would imprison him. He has no money, no equity and a young family. But if it came to that a personal bankruptcy would solve the problem.