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    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
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      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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2 PCNs for same offense


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Hi

My partner parked my car in a residents bay last April and received a PCN on the windscreen. He stupidly removed this, and left the car where it was. When he returned a second time, there was a second PCN.

 

I was not aware of this until a couple of months ago when I received a bailiffs letter for one of the PCNs. The fee had increased to £263 and I reluctantly paid this. The bailiff advised us to make contact with the council and ask them to waive the second charge as the car was not moved.

 

I did this a week later, and when I had not heard back from them, I rang them today. They verbally told me that there is nothing they can do.

 

My question is this - the tickets were given within 6 hours of each other and the car was not moved. Can this count as a continuous offense and where can I go/look to prove this? I have no right to appeal - does this mean that my hands are tied and there is absolutely nothing that I can do? Please help!

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The right of appeal only lasts for a fixed period - you have around 2 months from the date of the original PCN. Had you appealed at the time, then yes, you would have had the second one quashed.

 

The key question is asked above - did you receive any notices through the post? If not - why? Were the council writing to the correct address. There is a process for contesting the bailiff warrant, and getting back into the appeals process - but if they sent all due notices to the correct address, you are unlikely to succeed.

 

Can you let us know - if needs be, ask the council what address the notices went to.

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Did you not get a 'notice to owner' and then a 'charge certificate'?

 

I was left a bit in the dark as to what was sent in the post. I am the owner of the vehicle and i beleive that a letters (one for each ticket) was sent to my home address, for my attention. However, I never saw these as my partner intervened. He said the next correspondence was a letter from the bailiff many months later, and this is when I became involved. Does this help?

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The right of appeal only lasts for a fixed period - you have around 2 months from the date of the original PCN. Had you appealed at the time, then yes, you would have had the second one quashed.

 

The key question is asked above - did you receive any notices through the post? If not - why? Were the council writing to the correct address. There is a process for contesting the bailiff warrant, and getting back into the appeals process - but if they sent all due notices to the correct address, you are unlikely to succeed.

 

Can you let us know - if needs be, ask the council what address the notices went to.

 

One follow up letter was sent to my home address for my attention, but I never saw it (my partner did). Follow up correspondence was sent from the bailiff. We have paid one lot of costs (£263) but are now being asked for the second lot of costs that have been accrued for ticket 2 (same day, same offense).

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Cannot see you can do anything other than pay and then give your partner a good telling off!

 

I thought that may be the case, but was hoping you wouldn't say that! I have been told that the council are acting illegally by asking for 2 payments for the same incident, but am just waiting for clarification on this. Have you heard this?

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I thought that may be the case, but was hoping you wouldn't say that! I have been told that the council are acting illegally by asking for 2 payments for the same incident, but am just waiting for clarification on this. Have you heard this?

 

How do we or they know you didn't move? The only way they would be aware of the situation is if you appealled which you didn't do, the PCN was issued in good faith as the CEO was unaware a PCN had been removed.

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How do we or they know you didn't move? The only way they would be aware of the situation is if you appealled which you didn't do, the PCN was issued in good faith as the CEO was unaware a PCN had been removed.

 

Photos are normally taken aren't they? When I spoke to the council a couple of days ago, they said they would check the evidence. I assumed that they meant photos. As far as I am aware, it isn't a crime to remove a PCN. The crime was for parking in a residents bay without a permit and this crime has been paid for - 262 times!

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Photos are normally taken aren't they? When I spoke to the council a couple of days ago, they said they would check the evidence. I assumed that they meant photos. As far as I am aware, it isn't a crime to remove a PCN. The crime was for parking in a residents bay without a permit and this crime has been paid for - 262 times!

 

Yes photos are usually taken but you seem to be missing the point that you were given 2 opportunities to appeal and didn't bother. The Council may decide to look into it as a gesture of goodwill but in reality if everyone waited until the baliffs came and still expected to have the appeal heard it would be ridiculous and make a joke of the entire process.

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Yes photos are usually taken but you seem to be missing the point that you were given 2 opportunities to appeal and didn't bother. The Council may decide to look into it as a gesture of goodwill but in reality if everyone waited until the baliffs came and still expected to have the appeal heard it would be ridiculous and make a joke of the entire process.

 

I understand what you are saying, and I understand that you only have a certain period of time whereby you can try and explain yourself. I realise that the time the council has said this can be done has now passed. However, I am querying the point that 2 PCNs were placed for only one offense, and whether this was fair, or in fact legal. The fact is that I am going to have to find another £263 for the same offense, hence I have been penalised twice.

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9. Where a civil enforcement officer has reason to believe that a penalty charge is payable with respect to a vehicle which is stationary in a civil enforcement area, he may serve a penalty charge notice

 

Unless both were served by the same person it is going to be hard to show they both did not both reasonably believe a PCN was payable, therefore both were legally served.

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9. Where a civil enforcement officer has reason to believe that a penalty charge is payable with respect to a vehicle which is stationary in a civil enforcement area, he may serve a penalty charge notice

 

Unless both were served by the same person it is going to be hard to show they both did not both reasonably believe a PCN was payable, therefore both were legally served.

 

I have just received the following wording from the Parking Services Manager at Worthing Borough council

 

"Iftwo or more PCNs are issued within 24 hours for the same contravention, thatis, to a vehicle that has not been moved, it is current practice to cancel thesecond PCN.". This has been taken from OperationalGuidance for the Traffic Management Act 2004 (Part 6).

I am going with this.

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just one point, you got two tickets because you removed the 1st one and another warden would of put one on, the warden wouldnt of known a ticket had been issued if you removed it

 

however i do think you should of appealed this at the time, unfortunatly i dont know if you can now, or if the council can enforce both tickets

im not to sure how they work on these circumstances

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