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Wife used Season ticket card on SWT trains **RESOLVED BEFORE COURT**


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Hi all,

 

I’ve spent some time looking at this site and it’s finally time to put forward our situation and get some advice from the helpful people on this forum.

 

It’s very similar to the situation of Noveum and the current one of Sharris 100, but as ever slight variance on each situation I guess.

 

My wife took my season ticket, without the photocard (no, it was not given to her, I must stress,

I had been at home working that day and it was sitting on the side in the kitchen) on a one off occasion to go up to London.

 

Needless to say she was caught on the way up to London on SWT.

 

From reading here, no reason and no point delivering excuses,

but like most people here we are mortified, and like most probably didn’t realise the seriousness.

 

The first period of shock through reading this forum, especially the criminal record piece which may affect my wife’s future employment when returning to work,

has given way to a more practical view due to the advice I’ve seen given out here.

 

So our situation is that we have NOT received the letter yet from SWT.

 

This incident happened at the beginning of February so this is seven going on eight weeks.

 

Thus I will give an update on what SWT will want to charge us with and will ask for some advice then.

 

but this does seem a long time compared to others on this forum

 

I have just a couple of questions initially.

 

SWT still have my annual season ticket, I’ve been thus buying weekly season ticket passes, now adding up (it’s £400 a month),

and I presume there is nothing I can do to expedite the situation?

 

My wife was told by the guard that it would be several weeks before my card would be returned to me

(though from what I have read here, that depends on the prosecution and what they want to do I presume?),

but I guess it’s just a matter of sitting tight and waiting til the letter comes from the prosecution department?

 

Plus assuming that I will receive my card back, what would be the process with the prosecution department for getting refunds for additional costs while SWT hold onto the ticket?

 

I’ll be sure to update everyone here once we receive the letter, but an answer to the above would be appreciated, though I presume it will be to hold tight

 

Thanks

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Hi all,

 

I’ve spent some time looking at this site and it’s finally time to put forward our situation and get some advice from the helpful people on this forum. It’s very similar to the situation of Noveum and the current one of Sharris 100, but as ever slight variance on each situation I guess.

 

My wife took my season ticket, without the photocard (no, it was not given to her, I must stress, I had been at home working that day and it was sitting on the side in the kitchen) on a one off occasion to go up to London. Needless to say she was caught on the way up to London on SWT. From reading here, no reason and no point delivering excuses, but like most people here we are mortified, and like most probably didn’t realise the seriousness. The first period of shock through reading this forum, especially the criminal record piece which may affect my wife’s future employment when returning to work, has given way to a more practical view due to the advice I’ve seen given out here.

 

So our situation is that we have NOT received the letter yet from SWT. This incident happened at the beginning of February so this is seven going on eight weeks. Thus I will give an update on what SWT will want to charge us with and will ask for some advice then. but this does seem a long time compared to others on this forum

 

 

I have just a couple of questions initially. SWT still have my annual season ticket, I’ve been thus buying weekly season ticket passes, now adding up (it’s £400 a month), and I presume there is nothing I can do to expedite the situation? My wife was told by the guard that it would be several weeks before my card would be returned to me (though from what I have read here, that depends on the prosecution and what they want to do I presume?), but I guess it’s just a matter of sitting tight and waiting til the letter comes from the prosecution department?

Plus assuming that I will receive my card back, what would be the process with the prosecution department for getting refunds for additional costs while SWT hold onto the ticket?

 

I’ll be sure to update everyone here once we receive the letter, but an answer to the above would be appreciated, though I presume it will be to hold tight

 

Thanks

 

Your season won't ever be returned back to you. It's evidence in a criminal investigation. I doubt you will even get a refund.

 

SWT are not obliged to give you a replacement unless you get a crime reference number from your local police station and informing them your partner stole our season ticket. She will then probably be arrested and charged with theft by the police, (as well as prosecuted by SWT for using the ticket).

 

the first or second request for a duplicate was a result of a verifiable theft,

robbery, fire, or other exceptional circumstances which have been reported to the

police, the fire service or another appropriate organisation

 

So:

 

Do you report your wife to the police or

Do you chalk it up and get her to pay for a replacement instead?

 

By the way, you may well face investigation yourself, regarding Railway Byelaw 22. You may have to admit your partner stole the ticket, in which case, she's knackered anyway!

Edited by firstclassx
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bit too dramatic 1st....

 

the idea of CAG is to HELP.

not frighten the living daylights out of people.

 

i would await the letter.

 

i would think that the punishment of not having your season ticket ever again

will be the last you hear of it.

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

 

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

 

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

 

 

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bit too dramatic 1st....

 

the idea of CAG is to HELP.

not frighten the living daylights out of people.

 

i would await the letter.

 

i would think that the punishment of not having your season ticket ever again

will be the last you hear of it.

 

dx

 

But it appears he is not too concerned about his partner, more getting his money back - which won't happen.

 

The letter from SWT won't mention the future of his season ticket, but may mention him being investigated for possibly transferring the ticket (illegally) to his partner.

 

The tone of the original post suggests to me that the consequences are not fully understood to all concerned.

 

The reality is saying your partner stole it and maybe get a replacement, but with her in more trouble, or potentially get yourself into trouble by saying she didn't steal it, in which case you could be potentially prosecuted under Railway Byelaw 22.

 

The rules (generally) are that to get a replacement in these circumstances, a report needs to be made to police about a theft.

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agreed he poss wont get anythingback

 

howver, i would think

the loss of the season ticket & the subsequent costs will be enough punishment.

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

 

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

 

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

 

 

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agreed he poss wont get anythingback

 

howver, i would think

the loss of the season ticket & the subsequent costs will be enough punishment.

 

dx

 

Unfortunately, I have a feeling SWT may well disagree!

 

How much was the season ticket worth?

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Hi all, and thanks for your comments.

 

I need to add that we DO very much understand the seriousness of the situation ,and we are very concerned about the possible ramifications on my wife having a criminal record. It's was not something we realised was so serious, and has caused a great deal of stress and tears in our household.

 

I think what may have come across in my original post as lack of care is not so - it's that it's taken me several weeks to put the post of our situation up and that shock and stress has turned to acceptance, and we are now trying to deal with the ramifications of what has happened, which are twofold. The most serious is the possible effect on my wife, and then obviously there is a financial implication of a £4000 or so season ticket on our family.

 

I knew I could not comment on the former until I received the letter, so I was just asking advice about the latter - in no way did it reflect that it was what I was most concerned about @firstclassx

 

I hope that gives more clarity. Perhaps my initial post didnt give this clearly.

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would it help if I gave the fuller picture of what happened originally, or wait as i probably thought (bad idea) of waiting to explain once I get the letter?

 

we've been trying to suppress the stress of this situation, but it's seems we're only at the beginning :sad:

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Think I have answered a similar question to another thread like this only just the other day.

 

1) wait for the letter!!!!

2) Stop saying you were unaware it was taken? She knew what she was doing :)...just got caught!

3) If you have to reply with a statement be honest and up front - it saves time and avoids complicated questions later on.

 

...oh yes..and write off the season ticket but put in your letter 'as a way to demonstrate how sorry we are, I have not tried to get back my ticket to avoid complication'....

 

Concentrate on helping your wife and dont get yourself involved if you dont need to?!

 

best,

 

Noveum.

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would it help if I gave the fuller picture of what happened originally,

 

When posting on here it may help to give a full explanation, without identifiable detail of course, in order that any useful suggestions might be made

 

In general, your wife will need to wait until she receives the letter from the TOC in order to be certain what is alleged and when your wife receives the letter she will also have the unique reference allocated to her case so that quoting that will ensure her reply goes to the right person / office.

 

From your original post it does seem clear that this is a serious matter, BUT do not allow this to overshadow everything else in life. It isn't life threatening.

 

Yes, the misuse of someone else's season ticket or pass with the intention of avoiding payment of your own fare is considered a serious offence. In the case of Browning v Floyd (1946), which is an exact parallel of your case, the Appeal Court ruled that although the rail company may not have lost any money, the actual traveller had not paid their fare.

 

In your wife's case this appears to be a first time, one-off offence. It is correct that your season ticket will be held as evidence in any case for prosecution, however it is not unknown for them to be returned in due course. The rules make clear that misuse of season tickets may result in forfiet of the ticket altogether. The likelihood of any refund is very, very low.

 

Please recognise that this isn't all about you, it is your wife who is facing action.

 

Unless you are a qualified Lawyer (which I suggest unlikely otherwise why would you be here) you cannot deal with this on your wife's behalf.

 

As noveum quickly learned, the thing for your wife to concentrate on is being truthful and showing remorse. She may ask for an opportunity to resolve the matter without Court action. It is uncommon, but not unknown for this to be agreed. The only chance of success that your wife has is to apologise sincerely, acknowledge what she did was wrong and to make any offer to the TOC a more attractive, but just, resolution than will be achieved by Court action.

 

That doesn't mean offering huge sums to avoid Court action, bribery is also frowned upon, but convincing the TOC prosecutor that she has learned a valuable lesson, will not re-offend, is wholly remorseful and will cover all unpaid fares and all of the reasonably incurred costs MAY be successful.

 

The TOC do not have to agree, it is a clear offence and achieving a conviction should be a formality, but in the many years that I have been doing this work I have been known to agree such an action where I have been convinced that it was justified. I firmly believe that all prosecutors should, and in my experience do, assess all cases by individual merit.

 

Your wife will lose nothing by trying.

Edited by Old-CodJA
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Old-Codja and Noveum thanks for your response to this. My wife’s situation sounds very similar to yours Noveum.

 

The situation in the first place is that my wife took my card on a rare night into London on a moment of madness in a rush as late for a train.

 

We only moved out of London with our young boys last year and it was her first trip up to London,

and the hectic nature of childrens bedtime led to a rash decision - one she will always regret.

 

I didn’t give the card to her, I simply leave my wallet and travel card on the side, and she showed the card without the photo id.

 

None of this is mitigating, or it sounds like should even be mentioned at any point when we do get the letter,

but it gives the original context of what happened. No elaborate stories here.

 

 

It’s her first offence of any kind, no history of anything even a speeding ticket, and is very remorseful about her actions, and clearly has no intention of doing this again.

 

We are clearly very worried about the possibility of prosecution and any ability it might have on her future employment.

 

She is not a bad person, but a rash decision may have an effect on her that may affect our family.

 

I guess this is the same a lot of people have gone through.

I’ve been reading up fully about how it might affect future employment and it’s clearly a worry.

 

Please note Old-Codja and others I know this is not about myself, it probably came across the wrong way as this is coming from me,

though anyone would be concerned about the overall ramifications and I guess I am doing the due diligence re advice for her by doing this forum

to make sure that she does everything she can to try and avoid a conviction.

 

She’s being very stoic about this, but I want to ensure she is best prepared to deal with what is to come in the coming weeks - hence wanting advice on here.

 

I’ll keep this string updated.

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  • 2 weeks later...

providing you gave the correct details when asked....and the letters are not sat at 'Mr smiths house in Burnely'?!

...I think you may have slipped through the net! ;)

 

:smile:

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  • 1 month later...

hi all,

 

really looking forward to advice now,

 

We've now finally received two letters from SWT,

both with the same content asking both of us to attend an interview with opportunity to state mitigating factors

concerned the alleged offence (which has not been detailed yet?).

it's asking for both of us, not my wife only. the interview is also stated as under caution.

 

the obvious questions are why they want to interview both of us?

 

what would this achieve apart from satisfying how the ticket was used?

 

what is meant by mitigating factors?

 

are they looking to decide what to charge my wife with?

 

should we look at legal representation?

 

we are obviously very worried now,

 

the waiting has been bad enough.

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browsing back and reading oj's 1st post will help.

 

it was a one off even.

 

they probably ask you to confirm, say, other days when the card was used WERE you.

 

take evidence, like yourjob etc that will prove the relevance for the need for the travel at other times.

 

just simply and honestly, tell the truth.

 

'they' wont as such charge you with any but recommend this and that

 

however, I doubt it will go further on an honest 'mistake'

 

simply offer genuine remorse and offer to pay all admin costs etc etc.

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

 

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

 

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

 

 

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hi all,

 

really looking forward to advice now,

 

We've now finally received two letters from SWT,

both with the same content asking both of us to attend an interview with opportunity to state mitigating factors

concerned the alleged offence (which has not been detailed yet?).

it's asking for both of us, not my wife only. the interview is also stated as under caution.

 

the obvious questions are why they want to interview both of us?

 

 

To determine whether there are grounds for prosecuting both you and your wife.

 

 

 

what would this achieve apart from satisfying how the ticket was used?

 

 

If under caution and questioning it became clear that you had allowed your wife to use the ticket, or that you knew she had taken it and did noting to dissuade her from using it, then you can both be charged.

 

 

what is meant by mitigating factors?

 

 

Anything that would help to explain why the act was done.

 

 

are they looking to decide what to charge my wife with?

 

 

That's unlikely unless they suspect further offences, they will almost certainly already have decided that there is evidence of 'intent to avoid a fare' contrary to Section 5 of The Regulation of Railways Act [1889]

 

 

should we look at legal representation?

 

 

That is entirely a matter for you, but your wife might like to consider the benefit of a short initial criminal law specialist before attending the PACE interview.

 

 

 

we are obviously very worried now,

 

the waiting has been bad enough.

 

 

This isn't a process that can be hurried, the prosecutor has up to 6 months from the date of commission of the offence in which to lay the information before a Court. That's up to 6 months to issue a Summons in simple terms.

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Thanks for this, Old COD-Ja, it's probably an obvious question with an obvious answer but if they are going to prosecute, what would be the outcome of not attending the interviews?

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Thanks for this, Old COD-Ja, it's probably an obvious question with an obvious answer but if they are going to prosecute, what would be the outcome of not attending the interviews?

 

They will likely summons both of you to court and put you on the stand to interrogate under oath, if you decide to plead not guilty.

 

A summons is probably coming for at least one of you, regardless of what you do.

 

I'd recommend going to the interview. At least if/when you do go to court, you'll know about some of their evidence and what they will probably mention.

 

A pre-prepared statement and responding to their questions "No Comment" may be something to explore.

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They will likely summons both of you to court and put you on the stand to interrogate under oath, if you decide to plead not guilty.

 

A summons is probably coming for at least one of you, regardless of what you do.

 

I'd recommend going to the interview. At least if/when you do go to court, you'll know about some of their evidence and what they will probably mention.

 

A pre-prepared statement and responding to their questions "No Comment" may be something to explore.

 

thanks, we both intend to attend the interview, but I was obviously curious as to the consequences of not, however we intend to cooperate fully, I was wondering though then in what situations a pre-prepared statement and use of No Comment would be needed?

 

Also, now that we have the reference number is it worth us contacting them separately as others have separately to beg/plead for the vague chance of out of court, or best wait til after the interviews?

 

so many questions, sorry

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pers I don't think? you two have anything to hide

 

if this WAS the only time it was ever done

 

then just be able to provide PROOF that the other journeys they may 'say' could have been 'her' were not.

 

I would certainly NOT obstruct with 'no comment' under any circumstances.

 

if this is the only time it happened, you two have nothing to hide.

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

 

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

 

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

 

 

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pers I don't think? you two have anything to hide

 

if this WAS the only time it was ever done

 

then just be able to provide PROOF that the other journeys they may 'say' could have been 'her' were not.

 

I would certainly NOT obstruct with 'no comment' under any circumstances.

 

if this is the only time it happened, you two have nothing to hide.

 

dx

 

It makes no difference. They have enough evidence to convict at least one out of two people.

 

They don't have enough evidence to convict the other. Under interview, my questions would be:

 

Q) Did you give him/her the season ticket?

Q) If not, are you saying it was stolen?

Q) So you're saying, under caution, that your partner stole your ticket?

or

Q) So you're saying he didn't steal it. So he had your permission to take it?

 

It could then become, are you prepared to report the theft to the police? If not, it may be assumed that the ticket was given and both people are convicted.

 

People have a nasty habit of trying to be overly helpful in "explaining" their situation - and usually goes against them.

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hey 1st......

 

in a one off case [which I really really do not doubt the truthfulness of the op]

 

its a case of if they WANT to punish them for a partner innocently taking it ONCE

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

 

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

 

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

 

 

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It makes no difference. They have enough evidence to convict at least one out of two people.

 

They don't have enough evidence to convict the other. Under interview, my questions would be:

 

Q) Did you give him/her the season ticket?

Q) If not, are you saying it was stolen?

Q) So you're saying, under caution, that your partner stole your ticket?

or

Q) So you're saying he didn't steal it. So he had your permission to take it?

 

It could then become, are you prepared to report the theft to the police? If not, it may be assumed that the ticket was given and both people are convicted.

 

People have a nasty habit of trying to be overly helpful in "explaining" their situation - and usually goes against them.

 

So you are saying that they will be looking to try and convict both of us by the reporting to police? I don't think anyone would report their partner to the police in this situation. is it regular for prosecutions to try and convict both partners this way? It feels like a no win situation if they pushed for conviction based on lack of reporting to police.

 

It makes me feel that I can't help but have to look for legal representation.

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don't worry too much

 

what you must realise is many posters have many differing views

and some can be a little bit more 'dramatic' by using worst case scenarios than others.

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

 

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

 

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

 

 

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don't worry too much

 

what you must realise is many posters have many differing views

and some can be a little bit more 'dramatic' by using worst case scenarios than others.

 

dx

thanks dx100uk, I fully understand that everyone has their viewpoints on this. it makes it difficult to understand what to expect and advice to take.

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