Mark Hoban and DWP caught out re 'sanction targets'

[biglesbo]

Perhaps after viewing the following vid re ATOS somebody might take this goverment to court

 

 

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xwg0up_atos-secret-filming_news#.UVFqUldcbwG

[speedfreek]

Guardian Continues onslaught now with add DWP data set/scorecard listing all regions and there sanctions in official DWP table

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/mar/28/jobcentre-scorecard-areas-stopping-benefits

 

Both the Walthemstow (or whereever) and Malvern letters

 

http://labourlist.org/2013/03/shocking-dwp-whistleblower-letter-shows-targets-for-sanctions-in-action/

 

http://labourlist.org/2013/03/second-leaked-dwp-whistleblower-document-shows-welfare-sanctions-targets-are-widespread/

 

Lord debate 25/03/13 on the sanctioning subject

 

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201213/ldhansrd/text/130325-0003.htm#1303269000128

 

I need a drink!

[Bakatcha]

Perhaps after viewing the following vid re ATOS somebody might take this goverment to court

 

 

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xwg0up_atos-secret-filming_news#.UVFqUldcbwG

What's the point? They'll only alter the law retrospectively.

[citizenB]

Consumer Action Group has also been supplied with a copy of the Walthamstow letter.

 

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]42797[/ATTACH]

[oblivious]

reading that letter sickens me. Every time I go to the job centre it's made obvious that they are trying to find ways to sanction people.

 

I am a big fan of the Guardian and it's a pity more people do not read it and see how things are in reality instead of buying the daily mail and the sun who spout nothing but utter rubbish.

 

something needs to be done, there are groups who stick for the disabled and quite rightly so, but no one dare stand up for those who are unemployed and trying their best to get a job who are treated despicably by, for want of better word by morons, many of whom enjoy seeing job seekers having all their dignity taken away from them.

[osdset]

I like to think I extend moral support for all those stuck on the bottom rung of the ladder, sick/disabled, unemployed, or working on a pittance of a wage.

 

All these groups are in more or less the same financial boat that's riddled with holes and is slowly but surely sinking. Anyone claiming any type of benefit (apart from child benefit), or looks like they are heading in that direction is regarded with utter contempt by this government.

 

I think traditionally people had more empathy for the sick/disabled because their health problems prevented them from working rather than having what the government like to call a lifestyle choice, being on the 'dole' has always had a certain stigma attached to it.

 

Unfortunately attitudes across the board have changed dramatically over the last few years with the public divided into a them and us standpoint, government propaganda works because if you tell a lie often enough people will believe it.

[outlawla]

Consumer Action Group has also been supplied with a copy of the Walthamstow letter.

 

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]42797[/ATTACH]

 

Put this in your library as well if you haven't already got it.....

 

Malvern Customer Focus Newsletter

[citizenB]

There are a too many "able bodied" people seeking work at the moment that is going to make helping disabled people back to work very difficult indeed.

 

Faced which a choice between the two groups, who is an employer going to hire?- one who has no health problems or one who is going to require changes to the work place because of disability.

 

How many employers are going to want to make allowances for people having to take time off regularly for hospital visits / who are on prescribed drugs that might make them unsafe in the work place.

 

I see many threads on CAG where people are facing disciplinaries for having time off sick/hospital visits !

[osdset]

Put this in your library as well if you haven't already got it.....

 

Malvern Customer Focus Newsletter

 

Very little in that newsletter regarding assisting claimants back into work, but plenty about results, off-flows, the WP,and stats. The pastel pink cohort? WTF is that meant to be?

 

Yet more proof that JCP has turned into a WP funnel and a sanction machine. The government might just as well dispense with all pretense and

admit that JCP is just ostensibly a portal to benefit, but with so much conditionality attached that most won't receive anything, and those that do can expect at some time to receive a sanction, and certain referral to the WP.

[jasta11]

Apparently their customers are members of the ancient Roman Legion too (there were 10 Cohorts to a Legion).

 

In addition to it's military meaning, 'Cohort' can mean people in a similar group, ie age or characteristics, but the 'pastel pink' reference is a bit vague...possibly the colour of the particular JC form which deals with that group?. I certainly hope it has no racist connotations to it, but who knows how JC staff refer to clients behind their backs??

[Nystagmite]

Unfortunately attitudes across the board have changed dramatically over the last few years with the public divided into a them and us standpoint, government propaganda works because if you tell a lie often enough people will believe it.

 

Agreed. This really isn't helped by headlines such as 3 in 4 IB claimants can work. They can't work - the goalposts have just been moved.

[antone]

Apparently their customers are members of the ancient Roman Legion too (there were 10 Cohorts to a Legion).

 

In addition to it's military meaning, 'Cohort' can mean people in a similar group, ie age or characteristics, but the 'pastel pink' reference is a bit vague...possibly the colour of the particular JC form which deals with that group?. I certainly hope it has no racist connotations to it, but who knows how JC staff refer to clients behind their backs??

 

From the context, I would not say it is racist. It refers to the "39 wk pastel pink" cohort - presumably people who have been on JSA for 39 weeks. I'd guess the "Red" cohort has been claiming for 52 weeks.

 

This is pure speculation on my part, of course.

[dogboneday]

There are a too many "able bodied" people seeking work at the moment that is going to make helping disabled people back to work very difficult indeed.

 

Faced which a choice between the two groups, who is an employer going to hire?- one who has no health problems or one who is going to require changes to the work place because of disability.

 

How many employers are going to want to make allowances for people having to take time off regularly for hospital visits / who are on prescribed drugs that might make them unsafe in the work place.

 

I see many threads on CAG where people are facing disciplinaries for having time off sick/hospital visits !

 

Not all of those that claim ESA, are in the Support group and have a high level of award under DLA (in my case HRM & MRC) are unable to stand shoulder to shoulder with those who are unemployed. I am fully fit to work at least 16 hours a week (hence why there is an unlimited time span that they can go to work for up to 16 hours a week and earn £100 under the Permitted Work rules).

 

Just because some are deemed to be entitled to ESA and/or DLA doesn't mean that they can't carry out some work. I have had many job offers since retiring on benefits - but I choose not to exercise my right under the PW rules.

[dogboneday]

Agreed. This really isn't helped by headlines such as 3 in 4 IB claimants can work. They can't work - the goalposts have just been moved.

 

And who says that 3 out of every 4 IB/ESA claimants can't work? I know many that can and do! Some actually have reduced their hours down from 35 to 15.9999hrs a week to get round the Permitted Work rules and are working for the same employer doing the same job!

[Nystagmite]

And who says that 3 out of every 4 IB/ESA claimants can't work? I know many that can and do! Some actually have reduced their hours down from 35 to 15.9999hrs a week to get round the Permitted Work rules and are working for the same employer doing the same job!

 

Many of them then go on to win their appeal. And I'm sure that many have tried for JSA and been turned down on the basis of being unfit for work.

[estellyn]

In case anyone wants to know the truth about permitted work rules (rather than Troll propaganda):

 

https://www.gov.uk/employment-support-allowance/eligibility

[dogboneday]

Many of them then go on to win their appeal. And I'm sure that many have tried for JSA and been turned down on the basis of being unfit for work.

 

They may well not be acceptable to the jobcentre if trying to claim JSA, but many that are on ESA and in the Support Group actually work for up to 16 hours a week earning no more than £100 yet are classified as 'too sick too work'.

[antone]

They may well not be acceptable to the jobcentre if trying to claim JSA, but many that are on ESA and in the Support Group actually work for up to 16 hours a week earning no more than £100 yet are classified as 'too sick too work'.

 

Nonsense. People who are on ESA are not classified as "too sick to work", they are classed as having "limited capability for work". In other words, some ESA claimants, under some circumstances, could work. They just can't enter the labour market in the same way as those who are fit and healthy.

[dogboneday]

In case anyone wants to know the truth about permitted work rules (rather than Troll propaganda):

 

https://www.gov.uk/employment-support-allowance/eligibility

 

Propaganda? Not at all. If you would read the link yourself you will see that what I have quoted is 100% correct!

What your link does fail to mention is that you are not limited to the 52 weeks of Permitted Work - you can work indefinitely just as long as you are in the Support Group (which is what I said), are paid no more than £100 a week (which is what I said), and the hours cannot exceed 16 hours a week (which is what I said)!!

 

Trolling - not at all - you should research your facts a little better before criticising someone who does 'spout' the truth.

 

http://www.turn2us.org.uk/information__resources/benefits/illness,_injury_and_disability/esa/permitted_work.aspx

[estellyn]

Propaganda? Not at all. If you would read the link yourself you will see that what I have quoted is 100% correct!

What your link does fail to mention is that you are not limited to the 52 weeks of Permitted Work - you can work indefinitely just as long as you are in the Support Group (which is what I said), are paid no more than £100 a week (which is what I said), and the hours cannot exceed 16 hours a week (which is what I said)!!

 

Trolling - not at all - you should research your facts a little better before criticising someone who does 'spout' the truth.

 

http://www.turn2us.org.uk/information__resources/benefits/illness,_injury_and_disability/esa/permitted_work.aspx

 

Maybe you should check your facts!! Being in the support group and 'supported permitted work' are NOT the same thing. therefore your twisting of these terms is either a) a mistake, or b) trolling - please pick one, and if it is a, then I suggest you apologise. If it is b, then get a life.

 

Edit to add: You do not have to be in the support group to do supported permitted work, and permitted work while in the support is not necessarily 'supported'. There are strict criteria for it to qualify as 'supported permitted work', and it is very difficult to get the supervision criteria from an acceptable agency. Most permitted work is either less than £20 a week, or for 52 weeks only.

[dogboneday]

Nonsense. People who are on ESA are not classified as "too sick to work", they are classed as having "limited capability for work". In other words, some ESA claimants, under some circumstances, could work. They just can't enter the labour market in the same way as those who are fit and healthy.

 

 

Thankyou for clarifying that. Yes not all ESA claimants could or can work, but there is a porportion that can work. They are allowed to do so for up to 16 hours a week, earn no more than £100 a week, for up to 52 weeks - unless they are in the Support Group, in which case there is no limit on the 52 week rule.

 

Considering that there has been an explosion in part time working - I would disagree that those that can work and are receiving ESA are well able to enter that market and compete.

 

I know one that runs a very successful business yet receives ESA - Support Group rate and I know another that has been on ESA and in the Support Group for the past 4 years and is now doing the same job as they always have other than they have changed their working times as not to exceed the 16 hour rule or the £100 rule.

[dogboneday]

Maybe you should check your facts!! Being in the support group and 'supported permitted work' are NOT the same thing. therefore your twisting of these terms is either a) a mistake, or b) trolling - please pick one, and if it is a, then I suggest you apologise. If it is b, then get a life.

 

Edit to add: You do not have to be in the support group to do supported permitted work, and permitted work while in the support is not necessarily 'supported'. There are strict criteria for it to qualify as 'supported permitted work', and it is very difficult to get the supervision criteria from an acceptable agency. Most permitted work is either less than £20 a week, or for 52 weeks only.

 

I will clarify which I think will enable you to understand

 

'supported permitted work' has never been mentioned! I'm talking about Permitted Work. Supported Permitted Work is a totally different thing altogether.

 

Taken from the link below

 

Permitted work higher limit

 

This is designed to test a person's ability to work before moving into paid employment.

 

 

 

You can only do this for up to 52 weeks or indefinitely if a person is in the 'Support Group' of employment and Support Allowance.

• You must work under 16 hours per week;
  
• You must not earn more than the 'Permitted Work Higher Limit' net per week;
  
• Clients who are claiming Employment and Support Allowance with the 'Work Related Activity Group' can repeat the 52-week period of permitted work following a break in their claim of more than 12 weeks.
  

http://www.medway.gov.uk/healthandsocialcare/welfarebenefits/permittedworkrules.aspx

[antone]

Thankyou for clarifying that. Yes not all ESA claimants could or can work, but there is a porportion that can work. They are allowed to do so for up to 16 hours a week, earn no more than £100 a week, for up to 52 weeks - unless they are in the Support Group, in which case there is no limit on the 52 week rule.

 

Considering that there has been an explosion in part time working - I would disagree that those that can work and are receiving ESA are well able to enter that market and compete.

 

I know one that runs a very successful business yet receives ESA - Support Group rate and I know another that has been on ESA and in the Support Group for the past 4 years and is now doing the same job as they always have other than they have changed their working times as not to exceed the 16 hour rule or the £100 rule.

 

I didn't really think this was a complex idea. The mere fact that someone "could work" doesn't actually mean that anyone will employ them.

 

Anyhow, what's the point? That you know someone who is ill, works, and does so within the ESA PW rules? So what? Is this a story you plan to sell to the papers: "Benefit Claimants Follow Rules"?

[estellyn]

I will clarify which I think will enable you to understand

 

'supported permitted work' has never been mentioned! I'm talking about Permitted Work. Supported Permitted Work is a totally different thing altogether.

 

Taken from the link below

 

Permitted work higher limit

 

This is designed to test a person's ability to work before moving into paid employment.

 

 

 

You can only do this for up to 52 weeks or indefinitely if a person is in the 'Support Group' of employment and Support Allowance.

• You must work under 16 hours per week;
  
• You must not earn more than the 'Permitted Work Higher Limit' net per week;
  
• Clients who are claiming Employment and Support Allowance with the 'Work Related Activity Group' can repeat the 52-week period of permitted work following a break in their claim of more than 12 weeks.
  

http://www.medway.gov.uk/healthandsocialcare/welfarebenefits/permittedworkrules.aspx

 

Ok, I apologise, morphine made me misread the whole supported permitted work thing, and thinking that you were saying you could only be in the support group to do SPW.

 

However, your 'little stories' of all these people you reportedly know playing the system, makes it sound like you're making scenarios up in order to support your 'arguments'. This is why we doubt.

[RaeUK]

... I know one that runs a very successful business yet receives ESA - Support Group rate and I know another that has been on ESA and in the Support Group for the past 4 years and is now doing the same job as they always have other than they have changed their working times as not to exceed the 16 hour rule or the £100 rule.

 

Classic response.

 

... However, your 'little stories' of all these people you reportedly know playing the system, makes it sound like you're making scenarios up in order to support your 'arguments'. ...

 

That pretty much goes without saying ...