Accused of Retail Fraud at TKMaxx and can't defend the allegations.

[GDW1922]

(Didn't know where to post this, it spans retail and legal, and CAG tutorial suggested Welcome page)

 

I was accused by TKMaxx of retail fraud: buying two similar items and returning the lower price item for the price of the higher priced item,

 

Although I did not deliberately do this, they say they have evidence that I did this on 8 items on 2 visits to the shop.

 

My view is that they cannot prove it; but I have to go to court and the cost of a solicitor to represent me is about £400 which I can hardly afford and will likely be more than any fine. If I plead not guilty I can go to Crown Court and may have to pay a contribution to costs which I am informed could be around £4000. Which I definitely can't afford and I can't afford to take the risk of that. I don't qualify for legal aid.

 

So basically I am stuck with pleading guilty to fraud, living with a criminal record, and trying to find ways of mitigating my punishment. Not what I expected of British justice and this could happen to almost anyone, easily.

 

a few more facts. The alleged offences were 2 months ago (and 2 months before I was charged) and I can't remember some of the items nevermind how much I paid , or how much I received in refund. I think that if TKM had a strong case they would have reported it earlier and that they waited to ambush me in the shop to try to get me to admit it immediately.

 

TKMaxx are alleging about £100 in fraud but actually, that doesn't take into account the money I paid for the lower-priced item. My actual 'gain', if there was one, will be less than £5 per item. Hardly worth committing a crime.

The police have all receipts so I can't use them to check any facts or refresh my memory. I'm not sure if I should mention in court that the figures quoted are wrong by about an order of magnitude.

 

I bought probably 200 items and returned over 100, and it could be that this volume led TKM to think I must be up to something. In fact, I had been waiting for sale time to buy stuff for me, friends and family. So making 8 ' mistakes' isn't a high proportion

 

TXMaxx receipts (unlike comparable retailers eg Next) do not itemise individual items. They only say "Boys shoes", "Handbag" etc. and people pick the red sale stickers off the tickets so they can see the original price so the prices often fall off..

 

TKM say they have CCTV but I doubt that it shows how much I paid for the disputed items and how much I received in refund - ie no proof. Neither can they proove that I deliberately commited fraud - only that they suspect it on 8 occasions and therefore there is no smoke without fire.

 

I think the CCTV is purely used an a bullying tactic because I don't dispute that I went to the shop and returned stuff,

Checking on the Net, TKMaxx have been targets for refund fraud or ticket swapping since at least 2006 because of their lax processes. They have not changed these processes and closed this loophole so they are at least partly responsible for their own misfortune if people take advantage of it.

 

OK so when I have a hundred items to return (unwanted by friends) and some don't have price tags attached, it is likely that I connected the wrong ones in some case. There may be occasions when I got a lower refund than I paid, I don't know. Sometimes I had to guess which prive went with the purchases and this is how the 'fraud' happens.

 

I always give my correct name and address to the shop, which I wouldn't do if I knew I was commiting fraud.

Also, TKMaxx have some items in bags which they say are the items I returned. I doubt they could prove that because I don't remember them being pu aside when I returned them. Someone must have dashed out of the security office and collected them, or gone through the receipts and found similar items. I doubt there is an unbroken evidence chain.

 

Oh and I have the usual letter from RLP (see many other threads) which I will take CAG advice and ignore.

 

Any advice welcomed and let this be a warning that it could happned to anyone who shops at TKMaxx.

Edited March 15, 2013 by honeybee13
Enlarging font.

[renegadeimp]

You dont need a solicitor. They have no proof, so they cant bring any action. If they had proof, they would have involved the police. Can i ask why you think you have to go to court? Were the police involved? Or has TXmaxx's bullies, RLP gotten involved.

 

Also, (and this is a very important question), did you actually do what you are accused of, or anything similar?

Edited June 30, 2013 by citizenB

[honeybee13]

Hello and welcome to CAG.

 

I can see why you're not sure which forum is applicable. Forgive me if I've missed something, do you have a summons please?

 

If so, can you post up what you're accused of without personal details? Then I can get the legal guys in.

 

My best, HB

[Sidewinder]

You dont need a solicitor. They have no proof, so they cant bring any action. If they had proof, they would have involved the police. Can i ask why you think you have to go to court? Were the police involved? Or has TXmaxx's bullies, RLP gotten involved.

 

Also, (and this is a very important question), did you actually do what you are accused of, or anything similar?

 

I think the OP mentions that the police have the receipts, and also that he/she has been charged.

 

So - to echo HB's post, we could do with knowing more about the case. What happened, when, how were the police involved, exactly what is the charge etc?

Edited June 30, 2013 by citizenB

[andydd]

Bit of a waffling post.

 

I assume the op has actually been charged with fraud by the police ?

 

What happened when questioned by police ?

 

There may well be free legal advice available, legal aid ?

 

I get the feeling that something is missing from the info provided.

 

Saying there is no proof may not be strictly true, the cps is unlikely to pursue totally warrantless cases.

 

If the op is totally innocent then they surely should not be pleading guilty.

 

Andy

[GDW1922]

Sorry if my post is waffly, I tried to be concise but there is a lot of detail and I wasn't clear enought. Also sorry if you think I am hiding something. I tried to give full details.

Yes I was arrested and charged and told police i wasn't guilty, hence court. No previous or similar accusations. I have summons for Monday.

Charged as follows.

You made dishonest representation inclaiming a refund for incorrect items namely (item name) intending to make a gain of £(amount) for yourself.

 

Note amount in the charges is the amount of the refund, however, any gain would surely be the refund less what I paid for it, which would still be a crime in the eyes of the law but a much smaller figure.

 

To respond the the proof question. I think CPS are relying on the quantity rather than quality of evidence.

Perhaps they think that I bought a large quantity to try to obscure my crime.

Prices fall off or are sometimes not attached at all. Everyone who goes to TKM a lot knows this as fact.

The red sale stickers get picked at to see the original price. (All disputed items were in sales)

How can TKM show that I bought Handbag A for £20 and Handbag B for £10 and then returned B with a £20 price tag? All reciept shows is two handbags of different prices. Also, I think they need to show intent but I say that *if* the refund was higher than the price, it was an honest error and I tried to match items for return to the price labels or reciept amounts. I'm no thief and have no reason to try to diddle anyone out of a few quid.

[honeybee13]

Hello again.

 

As you've had a summons, I think the legal forum would be a good place for your thread. I'll move it there and leave you a short term redirect here.

 

My best, HB

[GDW1922]

Thanks to all who have read/replied. I feel better already.

A week ago I would definitely agree that an innocent person should not plead guilty but now things are different. This situation has been very upsetting for me and my family. We can't sleep, my work has gone to H in a handcart, my children are scared to go to school..... If I plead NG, It'll be up to a Crown Ct jury (more delays, stress...) and could hinge on whether or not they believe me...and I wasn't able to convince the police.

If I lose the case it'll be financial disaster for me, and I have to consider my family. Bad enough having a parent convicted of fraud, worse still to have a convicted parent and be broke. The whole situation just sucks.

[batty69]

Hi, I've worked in a retail before were there was various frauds going around which were very difficult to prove, as such the police would rarely pursue them or if it got past that stage,they still had a good chance of being thrown out at court because the offences couldn't be disproved as being genuine mistakes

 

However that is the good news, the bad news is that retailers are very aware that where the fraud is difficult to prove then they will need substantial evidence and will not pursue a prosecution after a one off incident.

 

Here's my interpretation of what has happened (please don't assume I'm making any aspersions about your guilt or innocence)

 

First off, your shopping habits (i.e. the high volume and ratio of returns) are highly suspicous. While they do not constitute a crime themselves, they will need explaining to the court. You won't be able to adopt the attitude, "that doesn't prove anything, so I don't need to explain myself". A jury of ordinary people will take this into consideration with all the other evidence when they come to a verdict so it needs adequate explanation and if possible proof from your side.

 

Now what I think has happened is that your shopping habits have alerted the store that something untoward has been going on. If they had proof they would have not waited till you came into the store to confront you if they had your details. What it sounds like they have done is launched an investigation and have been watching you for some time after they became alerted.

 

As you say it's impossible for them to match up the items to the reciepts, what they will have done is started to gather proof so they can match up items to the receipts. One method is to have your picture behind the tills, with a message saying something like, do not challenge this customer but contact security after serving them.

 

After being served, the staff member would then contact security, they would be asked what item you bought,how much and the till number. At some point later security would obtain the till roll and CCTV as back up.

 

I'm not saying this is exactly what has happened, but will be something along these lines to match up the receipts to the goods for them to gather their evidence.They will probably then wait for you to return the items and follow the process again.

 

Typically they will let this hapen two times, as once could still be a mistake and hard to prove it was deliberate.

 

Now here a very crucial question, on these 8 items you returned which had a fraudulent refund, how many items did you return ? e.g. did you return 16 items and 8 had the incorrect refund or was 8 out 8 ? Furthermore on your visits you sought refunds, were they consequetive visits for the refunds or had you claimed refunds inbetween which wern't alledegdly fraudulent ?

 

"Also, TKMaxx have some items in bags which they say are the items I returned. I doubt they could prove that because I don't remember them being pu aside when I returned them. Someone must have dashed out of the security office and collected them, or gone through the receipts and found similar items. I doubt there is an unbroken evidence chain."

As I said, chances are there has been investigation and them dashing out of the secuirty office will be precisely what they did. "Unbroken chain of evidence" ? if they done their job properly, they will have taken statements from staff and logged the incident in the security book to establish the chain.

Just because you didn't see something happen, doesnt mean it didn't happen.In fact they will have taken steps so you wern't aware while they built up their evidence.

Action plan for you:

1) Find out about legal aid (I've know people in good full time jobs with reasonable savings still be able to claim it)

2) Engage a solictor (you can do 1.) when you enquire at a solictor)

3) Find out if an internal investigation was undertaken by the suspect (I suspect it has) and how thorough it was.

But please, please don't adopt the attitude of "they can't prove that, so they have no case", what you consider as proof is bound to differ to what the store,police,court and most importatntly a Jury consider as evidence.

Reason why I say this is because a mate of mine adopted this attitude and was sent down, even as he left the court he was screaming "It's not fair, you can't prove it". Fact was he was guilty as sin and he admitted it to me, but I didn;t want him to get sent down as he was my mate. I seriously think if he approached the case differently and challenged the evidence against him he could have got away with it.

Hope this isn't to harsh, I have no opionion over your guilt or innocence but am telling you how it looks at the moment.

The key thing which most seasoned people will tell you on this forum is that once it gets to court. Right or wrong doesn't come into it anymore. Going to court whether civil or criminal is a big game. You need to now start playing that game.

Good luck, keep us all informed.

[unclebulgaria67]

If you have legal expenses on your Home Insurance, this may offer you assistance. They are often very restricted as to what they cover, but it may be worth looking at your policy.

 

As has been said, you may qualify for legal aid. https://www.gov.uk/legal-aid/how-to-claim

 

If you don't qualify for legal aid, then try this. http://www.barprobono.org.uk/

 

There is really no point in raising this sort of issue on a public forum to get specific legal advice, as there is too much at stake. You should be legally represented at Magistrates or Crown Court, by someone qualified to do so. A Solicitor may be able to challenge the matter, so it never gets to court.

 

Make enquiries as suggested and get the help you need.

[steampowered]

I assume criminal proceedings have begun? If so, these are being brought by the Crown Prosecution Service in the public interest and not by TKMaxx. You need to be very careful. If the CPS does not have any evidence they would not be bringing proceedings. I would definitely be seeing a criminal soliciotor.

 

You say you do not think the CCTV is proof of how much you paid and how much you received. I doubt CCTV is needed to prove this. I imagine a retailer the size of TKMaxx keeps track of their sales through identifiable receipt numbers and can check how much you paid, and also keeps a record of all their refunds, even if this is not stated on the receipt (when I worked at McDonalds as a teenager there was an identifiable number for every order - if you ordered a Big Mac 3 months ago and got a refund a week later, in theory that is all tracked). If TKMaxx kept the clothes separately from the rest of their stock then this can be matched against the receipts.

 

To convict for fraud the CPS would need to show fraudulent intent. This is not an easy thing to do but there are parts of your story that sound very dodgy. You bought 200 items for family and friends, an extraordinary number of clothes, and you returned almost exactly half those items, which is the number you would need to return in order to commit a well-known fraud. Furthermore, you admit in your post that you "guessed" which price went with which item. Unless you told the clerk that you had simply guessed the prices, it sounds like you were asking for money without a reasonable belief in being entitled to it (e.g. asking for a refund of £10 when you did not know whether you were due £8 or £10 - which can be fraud). A competent lawyer could grill you on cross-examination and possibly make this look very bad.

 

Of course, the circumstances will be used as evidence. If you always ended up getting a higher price from the wrong pricing it looks like fraud. On the other hand if you ended up roughly even it looks like an honest mistake. The fact that they are only chasing you about 8 items rather than 100 is helpful.

 

I would have thought you should be entitled to legal aid in the Crown Court, at least in some form. Make sure that you are not confusing civil legal aid and criminal legal aid, they are not the same thing. Whatever your situation I would be seeking legal help.

Edited March 16, 2013 by steampowered

[GDW1922]

Phew! So much good advice. Thanks.

 

Batty said :Now here a very crucial question, on these 8 items you returned which had a fraudulent refund, how many items did you return ? e.g. did you return 16 items and 8 had the incorrect refund or was 8 out 8 ? Furthermore on your visits you sought refunds, were they consequetive visits for the refunds or had you claimed refunds inbetween which wern't alledegdly fraudulent ?

 

From what I can tell from my card statements were one or two 'wrong' items out of 10 or 12.

In January , I went to TKM about a 15 times and the charges refer to 4 of them. There are 18 refunds on my credit card.

 

Also, the Scenario of staff rushing out to collect data after I left the store seems plausible from what I can remember of police questioning. And as has been said the fact that they didn't go to the police until 6 weeks after the alleged offences might mean they don't have concrete proof.

 

200 (a guessed figure) items were for my children - clothes for next summer, autumn and next winter. Handbags, perfumes etc for cheap gifts. Clothes for my family abroad and for their friends mabye a dozen people..... This also explains why I couldn't try them on - they were not for me. At home I would contact my relatives and say "I have green and red dresses, would you like them ? "They may say "Yes", "No" or "just the green one".. etc etc . Knowing the TKM have massive discounts occasionally, I was waiting for this and making the most of it. I thought I was being a smart consumer. Not so clever now, right?

 

I'm overwhelmed by your kindness in spending your time for me. Much to contemplate....

[GDW1922]

Another question, if I may. If I decide to suck it up and plead guilty. Will I be fined for every offence or once for all offences. I mean a few hundred quid will be painful enough but it is multiplied by 4 or 8..... disaster. Any ideas?

[unclebulgaria67]

Remember that this is a an open public forum. Anyone doing a google will find what you have said on this thread and could use it in a court of law.

 

Either you are guilty of the offence you are accussed of or a mistake has been made. You should seek legal advice. If convicted, this will affect you for the rest of your life. e.g employment, Insurances much more expensive as you will have to disclose for a relevant period.

[The Mould]

If you are not guilty of the offences that you have been charged with - then my advice to you is to plead NOT GUILTY of the same.

 

Never plead guilty to a crime that you have not commited.

 

Kind regards

 

The Mould

[steampowered]

You cannot make an informed decision about whether to plead guilty until you know what evidence they have. This is where your lawyer comes in. If they do not have strong evidence plead NG.

[maxxer]

add bit Ok, for those (and the OP) who want to know how it works:

 

Firstly - OP - I used to work in the Loss Prevention Department as said retailler. I left last year, however, I am 99% sure they haven't changed any processes since then with regard to statements and evidence.

 

So, here goes....

 

 

As mentioned before, TK's are generally targetted for refund fraud. This is usually as simple as people buying one item, and returning it for another one (either something purchased form tk's at a lower price, or something which wasnt even from there in the first place). Because the receipts simply state things like 'handbag', and the ticket code, it would be a simple thing, to go and get another new handbag (even something from a charity shop) and put the ticket onto it, returning it as if it was the bag you purchased.

 

The loss prevention guys are clued up to this, as are the customer service staff. Thats why, you can only go to a few tills in a store for a refund - they are trained staff who are looking for things like this.

 

Where do I start:

 

There will be good quality cctv footage. In every store, there is a camera directly above each till point. Its job, is to record every transaction. They were installed to keep an eye on the customer, as much as the money in the till.

 

There is a team of investigators who solely go round looking at refund fraud. The in store security looks at refunds, and call them to investigate if they think somethings up.

 

 

It is a simple process to see if someone is on the fiddle. You bring something back, say a jumper top. Your receipt says 'ladies jumper'. The cashier gets your original receipt, and scans the barcode. This gives the LP team the date, time, till, and full transaction details of the purchase.

 

They then simply look back on the tores cctv system. If the jumper with the ticket on was a blue jumper when it was purchased, and now its a red jumper, thats a job !.

 

TK rules state that they disregard the first time this happens, as a mistake. No action will be taken. However, your future refunds will be taken at a closer look.

 

Although the receipt only says 'handbag', the ticket has a 6 digit sku number on it. Youve got to ask yourself, how did that ticket manage to detatch itself from the original garment, and re attach itself to the other one ........ 8 times.

 

In your case, there will be 8 bits of purchase cctv, and 8 refunds on camera too. All with you presenting the items for purchase / refund.

 

One is a mistake, 2 maybe ...... but 8 ?. This is what you have to convince a jury of. (as you have said, you will take it to crown trial).

 

Were any of the items alledged to be non tk maxx stock ?. Another issue perhaps to think about.

 

Any of the items stickered price ones ? - there are 'tamper marks' on the stickers to show if its been peeled off or not. You mentioned people peel the red sticker off, to see the original price, but theres no reason to peel the white one off, so stickers should show no tampering.

 

your biggest hurdle will be the cctv aspect. No case would get a statement written (and the police called) without both purchase and refund being on camera. After all, how would they know 'its wrong' if they hadnt seen the original item purchased.

 

And, although there are 8 chosen and exhibited, there may be more. We sometimes used to present up to 20 iems to the investigators, who cherry picked the best examples.

 

Good luck

Edited March 17, 2013 by maxxer
add bit about evidence chain

[maxxer]

edited to add after a re read:

 

after reading some other peoples guesses:

 

there is no 'alert' system on the tills. Loss Prevention will of phoned the cashier after the transaction, and kept the goods behind - or, if the cashier knows you are being checked, they do the same. Look for the blank cupboards behind the cash desk - one of them is for security items to be checked. The cupboard is on camera, and so there is evidence of the same item being collected as being put in.

 

If you were spotted inside the store (which seems likely after the first 'mistake'), then they will of followed you around on camera, seeing what you pick and buy, so it may not just be till footage, but also on the shop floor as well.

 

And to clarify - each item has an individual code on it, a sku number, on the ticket. This is how we know that the first item scanned, actually wasnt the item returned etc.

[tifo]

how much did the 200 items cost you?

 

you will need to show how you had the funds to buy them.

[2Grumpy]

Wouldn't TKMaxx need to have stored the evidence - items returned & tags to prove this, also kept to the required standards?

[2Grumpy]

I have just thought about my OH who regularly returns 90% of the clothes that she buys because when she gets them home she isn't satisfied with the fit.

 

I have seen on occasions when returning stuff for/with her, the staff sometimes saying that "this is the wrong receipt for that item" by comparing the item no with what was on the receipt. In this case, the item number is printed on the receipt.

 

It occurs to me that maybe TKM aren't playing fair in this if the receipts don't identify what the item is to the customer but do the store. It sounds like a minefield with an obvious likelihood of error. Surely the staff should have told the customer that they had presented the wrong receipt rather than presuming fraud - that effectively they are causing by failing to print proper details on the receipt!

 

Your other receipts to prove the volume would be good

[maxxer]

I have just thought about my OH who regularly returns 90% of the clothes that she buys because when she gets them home she isn't satisfied with the fit.

 

I have seen on occasions when returning stuff for/with her, the staff sometimes saying that "this is the wrong receipt for that item" by comparing the item no with what was on the receipt. In this case, the item number is printed on the receipt.

 

It occurs to me that maybe TKM aren't playing fair in this if the receipts don't identify what the item is to the customer but do the store. It sounds like a minefield with an obvious likelihood of error. Surely the staff should have told the customer that they had presented the wrong receipt rather than presuming fraud - that effectively they are causing by failing to print proper details on the receipt!

 

Your other receipts to prove the volume would be good

 

 

The sku number isn't hidden. Its printed below the description on the receipt, and also its on the top of the ticket.

 

What the store is saying, is that the ticket has been removed from the original garment, and re attached to the garment brought back.

 

There's no legitimate reason for someone to do this, unless they remove all the price tickets from the garments when they get home, then decide that they don't want the garment, and re attach the ticket to the item (guessing incorrectly). Any way, they are causing a loss to the store, because it wasn't the item that was purchased.

 

The cashier wont accept items back if its the incorrect ticket (as in, not on the receipt). However, how is the cashier supposed to know its not the item that was purchased - the customer is presenting an item, and a receipt, with the ticket attached to it. They take the items in good faith. Its only afterwards that they realise, or security check the original purchase.

 

With regard to evidence, and as ive said, its put into evidence bags, kept in camera'd restricted locked area. The police never seemed to have a problem with the way it was handled and stored / presented, neither did the courts.

[GDW1922]

Thanks all, great answers. The theory about CCTV turns out to be correct. They watch the refunds and then the purchases however, apparently don't take in to account that if you bought 2 items for the same price, you have made no financial gain.

This case has now been to court and the magistrates were very fair, in my opinion. They were happy to discuss all circumstances before making any judgement. Result; Guilty plea and a fine. Sorry to all those who advised not guilty, it would have been touch and go at County court as many have said.

However, now I have another worry (well many but lets stick to a relevant one) , These 'offences' took place a few weeks ago and TKM said that they stopped gathering evidence after they found a few dodgy refunds. Question: Can they potentially look at all my transactions in more recent weeks and if they find a dodgy refund, can they charge me with that? Do I need to live in fear of a knock on my door and further charges? Their Security guy said they stopped checking me when they thought they had enough and he has no reason to say that it if not true. Better for him to suggest they have more evidence and I should cough to all of it at once.

[assisted blonde]

Got to say that the reason given for buying so many items is plausabe but it dosent seem to stack up when looking at the suggestion of labels being taken off and reattached to wrong garments. Whatever you buy it is common knowledge that you dont take any labels off untill you have decided to keep the item. Also i have a MIL who also returns an awful lot of items ( rekon she has shares in a certain shop) but although she can shop for England 200 items!! she couldnt even carry that many out of the store

[GDW1922]

2Grumpy - you have hit the nail on the head. All comparable retailers have clear itemisation.TKM choose not to do that , and to spend hours scouring CCTV looking for wrong items etc. Doesn't make commercial sense to me and doesn't endear them to their customers