Enough Is Enough! 4 Months On And My Patience Is Finished!

[Yogurt]

Hi, I will try to keep my emotions out of this as much as possible, and try to break it down as easy as possible. [Please note that I do apologise for the length of this thread, I wasn't expecting it to turn out this long.]

 

On the 26th of December 2012 I found what I thought to be a lovely 2004 Jeep for sale on Autotrader by a trader. It was advertised as having 34,000 miles and whilst speaking over the phone was stated that it was recently serviced by them and only had 2 owners from new, the second owner trading it back to them just a couple of weeks ago. I was at no point given any indication that anything was wrong with the vehicle and was told that it was an excellent Jeep.

 

The Jeep was located in Belfast Northern Ireland, 450 miles away from London. The initial idea was to fly down there and collect the vehicle and drive back. As I was paying the deposit over the phone the trader suggested of a transport company he uses regularly and that they can have the vehicle shipped to me for only £250, on top of which would he would include 12 months M.O.T in the price. I was thrilled that I will be saving some money, a lot of time and that it would be coming with a years M.O.T so I agreed to this. It was agreed that I would take delivery of the vehicle within 7 days but took roughly 2 weeks to arrive.

 

On the 5th of January I sold my own personal car that I listed for sale the day after I paid for the Jeep, under the assumption I would have received the Jeep by then. It was delivered much later then agreed but as I stated above I was not too concerned of the delay.

 

On the 10th of January I took delivery of the Jeep 5 miles outside of London at a service station. The first thing I noticed was the two flat front tyres and some relatively noticeable body damage (front wing was pushed in above the headlight and some shoddy bumper repairs, but once again, I was not that concerned.) As I was taking the keys from the delivery driver, he stated that the handbrake was snapped. I was extremely surprised, but once again, I was not THAT concerned about it right there.

 

I drove it into the petrol station carefully not to damage the tyres/rim and filled up the tyre pressure to the manufacturers recommendation. After trying to figure out how to open the filler cap to get some fuel in, I set out on my way home, around 25 miles into London. This is where it all gets 'very' interesting. OK, in order or problems:

 

1) Front Tyres, Cosmetic Damage & Handbrake. Already covered above. Oh, and it only came with one key & fob. How useful.

 

2) When joining the motorway the Jeep pulled to the left harshly, I assumed at the time this was an alignment issue and was once again, not overly concerned at this point. I held the wheel at a slight angle to keep it straight.

 

3) The power steering became non-existent and got very heavy when steering left or right with a terrible whining sound from the pump to go along with it (the tyres were inflated to correct level.)

 

4) The rear of the vehicle (chassis or axle) wobbled left and right scarily after going over speed humps or after turning a corner and straightening up. At first I thought the wheels where loose so got out to check the nuts and bolts etc, but all was fine.

 

5) When turning left or right slowly, or when trying to park - I could hear/feel a very harsh grinding sound and a throbbing effect from the differentials or the transfer case. This became evident when I tried to pull over into Asda on the way back to check the tyre pressure. At this point I was really beginning to worry.

 

6) As I got back into the car after checking the tyres, there was a terrible continuous "clunking" sound coming from the left side of the dashboard with the car turned off. It sounded like metal was stretching to its limits and smashing into something. It is a very odd sound and very difficult to explain. It would begin around 2 minutes after the engine turned off. I wasn't sure what to think of this and was beginning to get seriously worried.

 

7) Another thing to note was the idle of the Jeep would "hunt" between 500-600rpms with no means of stopping. This would happen when in Park / Neutral.

 

8) After all of this I managed to get home at 11pm, when I did I got into the passenger side to see where the clunking sound was coming from and as I did, I realized the left side footwell was soaked in water! I felt around to see if I can spot where it was coming from but there was no trace. Now I was beginning to get REALLY annoyed.

 

9) I decided to pop the bonnet to check the power steering fluid only to find out the bonnet struts where knackered and wouldn't hold up the bonnet. I had to use a plank of wood to do the job. I checked the PS fluid and everything seemed normal.

 

There are other small issues here and there, but for the sake of getting to the point we'll skip these.

 

The following day I returned to the vehicle with a camera to record the faults as much as I could and to check the damp etc. I put the key into the ignition to take a picture of the mileage as it was advertised as 34,000 miles but I received it with 35,000 miles. This was for the record and I was not bothered with it. I jumped out of the car to check the tyre pressure and as I turned to get back into the vehicle the doors where locked! With the only bloody key in the ignition! After 6 hours and a AA call later (£120 pounds!) I got the door open and retrieved the key. Apparently the auto lock feature locked the doors after the driver door was closed for a X amount of seconds. Pfft!

 

Anyways, I recorded all the faults as much as I could, with the exception of the vehicle pulling to the left and the vehicle wobbling. I recorded the grinding sounds from the diffs, the clunking sound, the damp footwell, the flat tyres, the busted handbrake and the busted bonnet struts, etc.

 

By now I believe it was the weekend and the trader was closed so the following Monday I gave him a ring to explain that there are some several serious safety concerns with the Jeep and wanted his opinion on what to do next. He explicitly stated that the vehicle had passed an M.O.T just moments before it was driven onto the transport truck and that in Northern Ireland all vehicles are mechanically checked unlike here in the England and these problems would have become obvious.

 

After a few days of going back and forth he offered to have the vehicle collected from London at his own expense, this was in writing (email) and verbally. At this point he was very understanding and kind towards me and I was really sympathetic towards him. After 10 days and 2 failed collections later, it was finally collected to be taken back to Belfast and be inspected by his engineer and also bring it back to the M.O.T centre as the M.O.T centre manager was just as concerned as I was.

 

During this time I did a bit of Googling only to find out that every single thing wrong with the car was a common problem with these Jeeps. The wobble from the car is also nicknamed "Death Wobble."

 

After 3 weeks had passed (February) I got inpatient of waiting and called up to find out the outcome of the inspection (11th feb) only to be told that he had just received the vehicle the previous Thursday (7th feb) and that he had booked it in with an engineer the following Wednesday (13th feb) and that he would get back to me on Wednesday. Well, an entire week had passed (20th feb) and I had no response from him so I emailed him and asked him to keep me updated as I was getting extremely desperate for a vehicle as I have been without one for well over a month. He emailed me back the same day letting me know that the engineer had finished his inspection and he is awaiting his report. This annoyed me somewhat as I couldn't see what was taking so long.

 

After waiting another 3 days I sent him email (23rd Feb) to point out to him how long ago the engineer had completed the inspection and what seemed to have been the hold up, as I still hadn't heard anything back from him.

 

I pointed out to him that I would be going abroad in March and would be driving across Europe to Italy and at this rate I may end up having to purchase another vehicle. I also expressed my need for a vehicle and that it was causing me serious inconvenience and hardship for being left without one for almost 2 months. Once again, I was really sympathetic and was not being rude or demanding or setting any deadlines etc. I asked for a simple breakdown of how long it would take for the engineer to finish his inspection, when the repairs would be carried out and when the vehicle be shipped back to me.

 

5 days after this email (28th Feb) I received a reply from him stating that he did not want to contact me until the repairs where carried out. He attached his reply into word document along with the engineers report, and to my extreme horror in his letter he stated that nothing was wrong with the vehicle aside from the two front tyres being punctured and that the rear right tyre had sustained damage to the inner wall and all faulty tyres were replaced "out of good will" as he was not obliged to have done so. He also said that the handbrake was not of his doing but he fixed this too.

 

On top of this (and this is where it got really distressing for me) he said in order for him to release the vehicle to me I should pay him £250 for the cost of having the vehicle shipped to him, £170 for an engineers report and another £250 to have the vehicle shipped back to me, a total of £670! He went onto say that 'we' both knew these costs where avoidable. I will ignore the allegation regarding lying about the faults. He also pointed out that I purchased the vehicle without prior inspection / viewing, and that the vehicle has now turned over 9 years and problems are to be expected from a 9 year old vehicle.

 

Appalled at this, I immediately emailed him back (28th Feb) with a detailed explanation to each and every problem, what causes these problems and how it was impossible for none of the faults to have been found or detected by the engineer, and that a simple test drive would reveal all.

 

I ended the email with the following statement:

 

I would also like to draw your attention to the fact that I made several video recordings of some of the issues mentioned above, most notably the rear grinding sounds, the water leak, the odd idling, the power steering whine and the loud clunking sounds from the dashboard. I offered to send you these for your viewing before you arranged collection.

 

At no point was I verbally, or in writing, made aware that the engineer would charge you a fee for inspecting the vehicle and at no point was I made aware verbally, or in writing, that the cost of inspecting the vehicle would be at my expense. I was under the impression that the inspection was to be carried out by your employees at your own repair centre.

 

At no point was I verbally, or in writing made aware I would be paying for the collection of the vehicle to be transported back to you. It was stated by yourself several times in writing that the vehicle would be collected at your own expense.

 

It was never at any point suggested nor was I given the impression that upon completion of the repairs I would have to arrange the collection of the vehicle myself or have to fly down to Belfast 450 miles away. I find it to be extremely deceiving and totally unacceptable such delicate and crucial information was missed out of our previous conversations and is only now being mentioned.

 

I would like to make it very clear that I am in no way willing, or obliged to pay the sum you have suggested. At no point did we enter a verbal or written agreement regarding any payments to be made upon the (lack of) completed repairs.

 

I am in no way willing to make any further losses on this vehicle if you do choose to sell. Excluding the time I have invested into this I am at a loss of £150 and have not asked to be compensated for this.

 

I have been left without a vehicle for over a month and have not asked to be compensated for the severe inconvenience and hardship this has caused me. I have been extremely patient during this whole process and have never demanded deadlines of any sort.

 

However, you have suggested that my vehicle will not be released unless I pay a debt that does not belong to me.

I insist that you take the vehicle back to the engineer as soon as possible with the pointers above. I am absolutely appalled that these problems where not detected by the engineer and / or were poorly inspected. None of these issues are in anyway difficult to replicate or detect yet the engineer has failed to do so.

 

I await your response on the matter.

 

Kindest regards,

This email was sent to him on the 28th of February, it is now the 11th of March and I have still not received a reply from him and as the title suggests... ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! I phoned trading standards but they where not useful at all. I am at the verge of crying and worried sick I have been ripped off and left without a vehicle.

 

The worse part of all of this is, I will be moving aboard on the 7th of April (yes, moving, not going on holiday) and I am completely lost in what to do. I don't believe I am left with any time.

 

I need to set a deadline, but have no idea how to word it. I want it to be done right so I can get this over with once and for all and put this disturbing nightmare behind me. I have been extremely patient all throughout but this has seriously gone over the top. I am willing to pay a fee via PayPal to anyone who can help me word a deadline letter to email him for the last time.

 

I am really distressed by all of this, and am seriously lost. You guys wouldn't want to know the hardship all of this has caused me and my sanity. The stress of never seeing the money again, being ripped off, blanked, insulted, taken for a fool and being blanked some more. The added stress of also knowing I will be moving on the 7th of April is earth shattering and I have no where left to turn. I have tried trading standards but they did not help.

 

Please, all the help I can get in the next few weeks is greatly appreciated. I am beginning to get restless and fairly stressful nights over this.

 

Thanks for everyone who managed to read through all of this. I really do, to the bottom of my heart, appreciate it!

Edited March 11, 2013 by Yogurt

[Yogurt]

I don't think I mentioned that the vehicle advertised in the pictures had NO tinted windows, yet when I received the Jeep the whole vehicle was tinted, and it was obvious that it was years old from the signs of wear and tear. My assumption from this is that he used the pictures from the time he sold it to the second owner. I'm sure this is some grounds to stand on, but I'll leave that down to you guys.

 

May I also add, which I think is important, that I recorded all the voice calls I had with him from the first second I contacted him back in January. I also have all the emails saved.

 

Thanks again!

[dx100uk]

how did you pay for the vehicle

 

dx

[Yogurt]

how did you pay for the vehicle

 

dx

 

Hi, I paid £100 deposit via credit card and the rest from my bank card the following day. (I now know that that was a big mistake.)

[dx100uk]

should be able to get it all back

 

section 75

 

http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/ombudsman-news/31/creditcards-31.htm

 

dx

[Yogurt]

Hi Dx,

 

The problem is, I paid only the deposit via credit card. The rest I paid out from my debit card. I do not believe the above link applies to me?

 

Thanks again!

[dx100uk]

it does because you paid the deposit by CC it applies to the full value

 

dx

[Yogurt]

Thanks for the reply Dx.

 

However, I am not exactly sure what to do now?

[dx100uk]

under section 75 the credit card company are equally responsible for the issues

 

ring them up tell the story

tell them you want your money back and nothing more to do with the car.

 

dx

[Yogurt]

Hi Dx,

 

The first payment was on the 27th of December, it is now the 11th of March, not sure if this is a problem or not.

 

I know this sounds like much to ask, but in all honesty I am extremely exhausted from all of this.

 

Seen as only £100 was paid from the credit card, I'm sure they will attempt to bury quite a bit of concrete at my feet, so if you could guide me through a couple of sentences to say to them, I'd appreciate it.

 

I don't think simply saying "I want my money back, all of it" would cut the biscuit.

 

I'd also like to take the time to thank you, you have lightened the weight on my shoulders greatly.

[dx100uk]

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/shopping/section75-protect-your-purchases

[dx100uk]

What if I only pay the deposit on the card?

 

The law's very specific, you get the protection for the whole thing even if you only pay for a part of it on the card, provided what you pay for costs more than £100 and less than £30,000.

Here's a quick example of how it works…

Savvy Salma spots the high-tech TV she's been planning to buy at half-price for £500, including delivery, in a high street sale. Yet she's only got £10 left on her card limit (don't worry, it's a cashback card, she's going to pay it off in full).

Salma pays £10 of the cost on her credit card and the rest on her debit card. Sadly the next day the store goes bust, before her telly is delivered. Yet she can claim the WHOLE £500 back from the credit card company, because she paid in part on the card.

Therefore if you want protection…

As long as it costs more than £100, pay for even a fraction on a credit card and you're protected.

[belfast4]

what is the name of the trader and I will see if I can help.

[Conniff]

You really are very gullible, I trust you have learned from this and a future purchase will be locally and with someone who know about cars.

 

Do you have the full name and address of the selling dealer ?

 

Is your debit card a 'Visa' debit card ?

[Yogurt]

You really are very gullible, I trust you have learned from this and a future purchase will be locally and with someone who know about cars.

 

Do you have the full name and address of the selling dealer ?

 

Is your debit card a 'Visa' debit card ?

 

Oh how I have, haha!

 

There is one other thing to mention, how am I suppose to actually prove anything is wrong with the vehicle? I never had it independently inspected myself, and the only report on hand is the engineers report he provided me, which other then mentioning that there is a damp on the footwell, states nothing wrong with it. (I do have video footage of the vehicle if that counts.)

 

Yes, my debit card is Visa however my creditcard is Mastercard. They are both from the same bank.

 

I am curious, how long does it take to receive a full refund?

 

I will be phoning then in the next hour, I am not exactly sure how to start explaining the problem, and what specific thing to ask from them and in what wording. I do believe the wording I have always used with this trader allowed him to feel so comfortable in doing all of this.

 

ONE other thing to mention. I have not signed and sent in the log-book for the vehicle, I still have it sitting here, the full V5. Does this work in, or against my favor?

[Conniff]

If it is within the first six months, then it is up to him to prove there isn't anything wrong.

[Surfer01]

Is it the Jeep Cherokee, Grand Cherokee and Wrangler? Have you checked the MOT history to verify the mileage? If mileage does not match up, then the dealer has committed a criminal act. I have the 2005 Jeep Grand Cherokee 3.0L and I am quite happy with it and bought it from a reputable dealer about 50 miles from where we live and they rectified a few faults that it had with no hassle. Seems a lot of problems to have with a Jeep that has done only 35,000 miles!

[belfast4]

Is it the Jeep Cherokee, Grand Cherokee and Wrangler? Have you checked the MOT history to verify the mileage? If mileage does not match up, then the dealer has committed a criminal act. I have the 2005 Jeep Grand Cherokee 3.0L and I am quite happy with it and bought it from a reputable dealer about 50 miles from where we live and they rectified a few faults that it had with no hassle. Seems a lot of problems to have with a Jeep that has done only 35,000 miles!

 

 

 

was there a specific reason you ignored what I offered I am a car dealer in Belfast and have been for 30 years. no big deal to me if you don't want help.

[Yogurt]

Yes I did check the history, I even phoned the DVA in Northern Ireland and they confirmed that for the first three years no M.O.T's (new) then something along the lines of 18,000, 24,000 29,000 then one skipped M.O.T (SORN) then another at 31,000 and the last new M.O.T at 35,000.

 

It could very well have been clocked between M.O.T's as a few people I spoke to said it was impossible to have had "Death Wobble" at 35,000 miles and that this is mileage related, not age related. Death Wobble begins after the 80,000-120,000 mark depending on usage.

 

Its a Jeep Grand Cherokee.

[Yogurt]

 

 

 

was there a specific reason you ignored what I offered I am a car dealer in Belfast and have been for 30 years. no big deal to me if you don't want help.

 

Hi,

 

No I wasn't ignoring you, I'd rather not name or shame anybody just yet. I'll wait a little longer for a reply from the trader (even though I have waited long enough.)

[Surfer01]

 

 

 

was there a specific reason you ignored what I offered I am a car dealer in Belfast and have been for 30 years. no big deal to me if you don't want help.

Sorry no idea who or what you do, so not sure why you are replying to my post?

[Yogurt]

I think he was replying to me.

[Surfer01]

I think he was replying to me.

Seems they can't get that right either. LOL! If they have offered a refund grab it as they are then complying with the law and being decent about it..

[Yogurt]

No, no refund offered, I wish! With all the problems with it, you would have thought that is what they would have done. I can't believe he got someone to fake a report and say its all in tip top shape (or the engineer is just as incompetent.)

 

The problem I am having is, when I phone the credit card company tomorrow, what "exactly" do I say?

 

"I made a purchase on the 27th of December and a deposit of £100 was paid via my credit card, the rest via my debit card the following day...."

 

And then?

[Conniff]

You tell them exactly, you secured the car with your credit card and paid the balance with your debit card.