Another IRCAS penalty appeal refused

[billsters]

Hi everyone, this is on behalf of my partner.

 

Got "caught" by an inspector, but is unsure whether the Oyster reader (at the station, or the inspectors) is at fault;

 

also, the inspector failed to issue the penalty notice,

we think deliberately - he certainly took his time.

 

Got a £50 demand .. appealed on line but was refused, got a standard reply and a futher £50 demand.

 

Here are the details entered on line ..

 

I have an Oyster card.

On this occasion, I was under the impression I had touched in at XXXX.

I either touched in at XXXX and it did not register, or I did not touch in (I have forgotten to do this before,

so it is possible, but similarly, I have definitely touched in or out sometimes and the machine hasn't registered,

in which case Oyster refund me for any overcharge).

I was not actually issued with the penalty notice as the officer took too long to complete it,

and he knew I was getting off at XXX (XXX to XXXX is a five minute journey).

I attempted to hurry the process along, but he refused to look at documentation with my name and address and insisted on a lengthy telephone check.

I got off at my stop and he was still writing the notice.

I would have no possible motivation for evading the fare that day, as I tried to explain to the officer, who ignored everything I said.

1. My oystercard usage for the day was at £7.30, which means there was only another 40p to go before reaching the "cap" of £7.70.

I definitely checked at the Oyster reader at xxxxx that I had sufficient balance for my journey,

otherwise I would have topped up there.

2. I was on JURY SERVICE that whole fortnight, which means all my fares were reimbursed by the Juror's Office.

Why would I deliberately avoid racking up a 40p charge, which would be paid for by the Crown?

I am willing to pay a small charge but not £50.00. If you were to take it further,

I can produce the printout of my Oystercard journey history (which shows me taking several journeys that day, to and from xxxxx,

where the court is) and put the question to the court,

is it logical I would deliberately avoid paying 40p which I was going to get back?

.

[billsters]

Is there any mileage in sending them a cheque for £10, but pressing them about the possible faulty equipment and the fact that no penalty notice was actually issued?

The oyster journey history was uploaded with the above form, and we have a printout now, which shows a clear pattern of PAYING for journeys, and a few refunds / adjustments due to Oyster anomalies.

Thanks.

[firstclassx]

So you walked away without receiving the Penalty Fare, because you think he was taking his time?

 

You are lucky you aren't being prosecuted!

 

It is your, and only your, responsibility to make sure your Oyster card is correctly validated. If you neglect to ensure this, you are correctly liable for a Penalty Fare.

 

If you send them £10, they will return it, and will probably send you a summons for contravening Byelaw 18.

 

Your "intent" is irrelevant really - it is a strict liability matter as to whether you did, or did not have a valid ticket or pass. Simple. A court, nor the prosecutor, TfL, would be interested in your intent.

 

Walking away without waiting is your own fault. This sort of behaviour from passengers is unacceptable.

 

Pay up and make sure you don't make this mistake again.

 

If you don't pay up, you will go to court.

Edited March 7, 2013 by firstclassx

[billsters]

Even if "walking away" is the only way to ensure you get off at your stop and are not carried miles out of your way? That's ridiculous.

[BazzaS]

Even if "walking away" is the only way to ensure you get off at your stop and are not carried miles out of your way? That's ridiculous.

 

Did you get off at your stop?

Did you tell the inspector "this is my stop"?

Did they get off the train with you?

[Old-CodJA]

Hi everyone, this is on behalf of my partner.

 

Got "caught" by an inspector, but is unsure whether the Oyster reader (at the station, or the inspectors) is at fault;

 

also, the inspector failed to issue the penalty notice,

we think deliberately - he certainly took his time.

 

Got a £50 demand .. appealed on line but was refused, got a standard reply and a futher £50 demand.

 

Here are the details entered on line ..

 

I have an Oyster card.

 

On this occasion, I was under the impression I had touched in at XXXX.

I either touched in at XXXX and it did not register, or I did not touch in (I have forgotten to do this before,

so it is possible, but similarly, I have definitely touched in or out sometimes and the machine hasn't registered,

in which case Oyster refund me for any overcharge).

 

I was not actually issued with the penalty notice as the officer took too long to complete it,

and he knew I was getting off at XXX (XXX to XXXX is a five minute journey).

 

I attempted to hurry the process along, but he refused to look at documentation with my name and address and insisted on a lengthy telephone check.

 

I got off at my stop and he was still writing the notice.

I would have no possible motivation for evading the fare that day, as I tried to explain to the officer, who ignored everything I said.

 

1. My oystercard usage for the day was at £7.30, which means there was only another 40p to go before reaching the "cap" of £7.70.

I definitely checked at the Oyster reader at xxxxx that I had sufficient balance for my journey,

otherwise I would have topped up there.

 

2. I was on JURY SERVICE that whole fortnight, which means all my fares were reimbursed by the Juror's Office.

Why would I deliberately avoid racking up a 40p charge, which would be paid for by the Crown?

I am willing to pay a small charge but not £50.00. If you were to take it further,

I can produce the printout of my Oystercard journey history (which shows me taking several journeys that day, to and from xxxxx,

where the court is) and put the question to the court,

is it logical I would deliberately avoid paying 40p which I was going to get back?

.

 

 

 

The one important thing that your on-line reply appears to focus on, and which is not relevant, is the thought that avoidance of 40p was 'deliberate'.

 

A Penalty Fare Notice is not issued if it is thought that the traveller intended to deliberately avoid a fare, no matter what the amount

 

A Penalty Fare is exactly what it says it is, a penalty for failing to ensure that a valid ticket is held.

 

If it was thought that you intended to avoid that fare, the matter would have resulted in a report for prosecution.

 

Your reply appears to indicate that you have a history of not checking that you have touched-in properly. If this is the case I am not surprised that an appeal has been rejected.

[billsters]

OK, fair enough (well not really, but we can take it on the chin!). Didn't appreciate first-class's narky attitude to another forum member who was simply asking a question, but the "unacceptable behaviour of passengers" seems to indicate an over-identification with authority.

[billsters]

He was told from the moment he started making the phone call "is this going to take long? I need to get off in a minute. I have some ID here." but he ignored it.

 

It appears he was being deliberately difficult. I know traffic wardens, ticket inspectors etc. do a necessary job but it's naive to think that some don't wring every bit of a power trip they can from it.

[billsters]

They didn't bother prosecuting in that case, but it did take a letter.