Failure to notfiy change in circumstances?

[Zarbafi]

I am currently in the support group of ESA and have recently filled a new ESA50. I have just watched an episode of the BBCs Saints &Scroungers TV show where a woman who did have a genuine disability was charged and fined by the DWP with a failure to notify a change in circumstances because occasionally she would take a large amount of pain killers and for a brief time she would be able to move about almost normally. Even though she was found guilty she still recieves her disability benefits but it was her failure to make her occasional good days known to the DWP that meant she was fined (should state that she was investigated after someone made a call to the dwp about her).

 

Now I feel a bit scared about this as my condition means I have good and bad days and on a good day I can get about and so on although doing so often means I will be all the sicker the next day. I had help this time from CAB with my form and in several places where I used to tick no such as mobility, being able to carry out simple tasks etc they ticked it varies because it it true that during an attack I am unable to for example walk any distance, up and down stairs without it making the pain I am in more severe. I also stated that attacks can last anywhere from 2 to 24 hours which is also true. I stated that I do go out sometimes but only if I know I can get back home incase of an attack easily myself or that I have someone I can call to come and collect me, again true. The woman from CAB actually felt I should be applying for DLA as well but currently I feel lucky just to be getting ESA. I live with family so I don't get any other benefits.

 

I feel worried about my form now, is ticking the it varies box and gthen giving details of how you are affected during an attack enough? The know my condition is intermittenet but it feels that the odds are stacked against you with ESA so I did talk more about my bad days more than good days rather than also saying on a good day I can go and meet my friend for a coffee or go to the shops I just said that my mobility varied depending on how I was feeling day to day.

 

I have only been on ESA a short time and I hope to make a recovery but I always worry about the fact that my illness is fluctuating. I think I have said before that my specialist has said I should lose weight to help myself get better, I joined a local gym but I feel worried about going on my good days because I might be accused of fraud. I don't have anything in writing about exercise from my doctor so as a result I have only went once so far which is frustrating as I know I should be going.

 

If anybody has any advice or reasurance I'd be very greatful, should I call the DWP and reiterate to them that although I am ill much of the time I do have sporadic good days?

 

What do you all think?

[Nystagmite]

I saw that episode and it left me confused. I was always told to do the DLA and ESA forms on an average day. I always wrote on mine "on a better day, this will happen" and how often these better days are and it says on my on DLA that they accept that my conditions fluctuate.

 

As I understand it, this lady was filmed. The filming can be edited, you don't see the pain or what's going on on the inside. (all my disabilities are invisible) It's not that reliable in my opinion for evidence.

 

There was a thread on here last year where someone's benefits (I think it was her son) were stopped because he was filmed walking 10 meters and despite evidence stating the problems he has due to his disabilities and the fact that it was only 10 meters, (as opposed to him running a marathon and claiming he couldn't walked) his benefits were stopped. Ridiculous.

[Zarbafi]

It is very difficult to know how to get it right, even with expert help. I am assuming that perhaps those charged or who lose benefits due to being seen out and about are those who made no referance to there ability to do things periodically (this is not to say I agree withthe way these cases are handled as they seem to be treated as criminals where it was often an honest mistake, if they make a mistake do we criminalise the dwp?).

 

If you have a fluctuating condition and you spend as much time talking about your good days as you do bad days it feels like you are liable to lose your ESA when you do not meet the criteria for JSA and have no hope of finding a job. The whole business of living with an illness and trying to access vital benefits is enough to drive anyone to dispair these days.

[estellyn]

I haven't seen the episode, but maybe the issue is that there is a treatment (painkillers) that means she is not as disabled as she claims. When completing an ESA or DLA form, it is important to describe how you are on good and bad days, how many you have, and also how repeatable the activity is during the day - for instance, the absolute maximum I could walk at once is about 100 metres, but only on a good day (about one a month), and even then I'd be in extreme agony by the end of the 100 metres, and would have difficulty walking at all for a week after due to the inflammation it would cause. Only the distance that can be repeated reliably, counts, and if you can reliably repeat a distance by taking painkillers, then you're in trouble if you don't mention this.

 

ESA and (in future) PIP are more problematic because incorrect assumptions are made from the answers to questions at an assessment - in this case the important thing is to be very thorough in how you complete the ESA50 or PIP forms. However no one is going to believe a person has limited mobility if they do something regularly like going shopping in a large supermarket every Friday, and walking up and down the aisles.

 

So in short, be honest and detailed and you'll have nothing to worry about fraud-wise.

[Zarbafi]

I haven't seen the episode, but maybe the issue is that there is a treatment (painkillers) that means she is not as disabled as she claims. When completing an ESA or DLA form, it is important to describe how you are on good and bad days, how many you have, and also how repeatable the activity is during the day - for instance, the absolute maximum I could walk at once is about 100 metres, but only on a good day (about one a month), and even then I'd be in extreme agony by the end of the 100 metres, and would have difficulty walking at all for a week after due to the inflammation it would cause. Only the distance that can be repeated reliably, counts, and if you can reliably repeat a distance by taking painkillers, then you're in trouble if you don't mention this.

 

ESA and (in future) PIP are more problematic because incorrect assumptions are made from the answers to questions at an assessment - in this case the important thing is to be very thorough in how you complete the ESA50 or PIP forms. However no one is going to believe a person has limited mobility if they do something regularly like going shopping in a large supermarket every Friday, and walking up and down the aisles.

 

So in short, be honest and detailed and you'll have nothing to worry about fraud-wise.

 

I do understand what you are saying about being honest and giving as much detail as possible. I have no functional problems with my mobility at all but due to my condition movement causes my pain to worsen so that I have to lie down during attacks. I am limited in the amount of medication that I can take for attacks as overuse of medication actually makes my illness worse so I could not for example take painkillers daily as a preventative measure as it would only make me worse not to mention the damage the drugs would do to my body long term. It is the sheer unpredictable nature of my disease that is tricky. When filling out my form I average my attacks for the last three months and I also include a diary showing what days over the past three months I had attacks.

 

I might wake up one morning perfectly well, be able to do some housework, go to the shops but be bedridden by midafternoon. Sometimes I am lucky and after a couple of hours I am well enough to get up and maybe eat something, I can then move about without pain although I am exhausted and normally need to sleep at length to recover. Other times when an attack hits my medication proves useless and I suffer non stop for 24 hours then it can take days to recover to be well enough to resume normal activity. It is so unpredictable but I am ill at least 15 days out of the month, often more. I hope that by saying my condition varies that they will understand that I am only effected during an attack.

 

I think this issue again highlights how problematic ESA & PIP are for people with fluctuating conditions where holding down a job would be a miracle but meeting the criteria for benefits is equally impossible. It sounds like in your case your disability limits your mobility daily with the very odd good day where mediction might make it possible to mobilise even if that were not medically advisable so you seem to be more confident in putting that down on your form, which is correct (please forgive me if I am making assumptions about your condition) However for people who have fluctuating conditions where the are drastically ill one day and almost normal the next are in a tricky spot benefit wise, especially when you never know one day, week or month to the next how you will be. It seems we are very vulnerable to both not getting the help we need and even if we do being accused of cheating not to mrntion we are talking about a system which fails even the most blatently ill and disabled.

 

Note: In that episode the woman on the day she was filmed took " dangerous levels of medication" to have a rare day out. It didn't seem like a stratagy she could use day in day out to be up and about. To me it seemed a very cruel judgement.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Zarbafi

[estellyn]

I do understand what you are saying about being honest and giving as much detail as possible. I have no functional problems with my mobility at all but due to my condition movement causes my pain to worsen so that I have to lie down during attacks. I am limited in the amount of medication that I can take for attacks as overuse of medication actually makes my illness worse so I could not for example take painkillers daily as a preventative measure as it would only make me worse not to mention the damage the drugs would do to my body long term. It is the sheer unpredictable nature of my disease that is tricky. When filling out my form I average my attacks for the last three months and I also include a diary showing what days over the past three months I had attacks.

 

I might wake up one morning perfectly well, be able to do some housework, go to the shops but be bedridden by midafternoon. Sometimes I am lucky and after a couple of hours I am well enough to get up and maybe eat something, I can then move about without pain although I am exhausted and normally need to sleep at length to recover. Other times when an attack hits my medication proves useless and I suffer non stop for 24 hours then it can take days to recover to be well enough to resume normal activity. It is so unpredictable but I am ill at least 15 days out of the month, often more. I hope that by saying my condition varies that they will understand that I am only effected during an attack.

 

I think this issue again highlights how problematic ESA & PIP are for people with fluctuating conditions where holding down a job would be a miracle but meeting the criteria for benefits is equally impossible. It sounds like in your case your disability limits your mobility daily with the very odd good day where mediction might make it possible to mobilise even if that were not medically advisable so you seem to be more confident in putting that down on your form, which is correct (please forgive me if I am making assumptions about your condition) However for people who have fluctuating conditions where the are drastically ill one day and almost normal the next are in a tricky spot benefit wise, especially when you never know one day, week or month to the next how you will be. It seems we are very vulnerable to both not getting the help we need and even if we do being accused of cheating not to mrntion we are talking about a system which fails even the most blatently ill and disabled.

 

Note: In that episode the woman on the day she was filmed took " dangerous levels of medication" to have a rare day out. It didn't seem like a stratagy she could use day in day out to be up and about. To me it seemed a very cruel judgement.

 

No, it does not sound fair if she was penalised for basically overdosing on pain meds in order to do something normal - something sounds very wrong about the case.

 

Yes, my mobility is bad most of the time, and increased mobilising on a good day will worsen my ability to mobilise for days afterwards (why I've not been active on the forum the last few days - morphine not so good for brain power).

 

But it sounds like you've done the right thing and been honest about your capabilities, but yes, fluctuating conditions are more difficult to get across. I had a client get dla HRM and HRC for MS, but her condition fluctuated from being completely dependant on another person for care, and unable to mobilise (around 8 months of the year), to (as long as she took things easily) being self caring and able to mobilise 100-200 metres. It was difficult getting everything across and I used extra sheets of paper for the form in order to do this. It is difficult but not impossible. The important thing to show is if your bad days are the majority of the time, then this should qualify you. But if bad days were only, say 7 days in a month then this wouldn't qualify you. I'm a big fan of diary evidence being used, and have had a lot of success with diary evidence with the DWP and Tribunals.

[Surfer01]

I have yet to find a pain killer that does not affect your personality or brain as I find all make me sleepy or send me to cloud nine!

[huggy41]

Oramorph reaches the parts others pain killers cannot reach.

[Zarbafi]

I have yet to find a pain killer that does not affect your personality or brain as I find all make me sleepy or send me to cloud nine!

 

Oramorph reaches the parts others pain killers cannot reach.

 

I quite agree that painkillers do have side effects especially if you have to use them in high doses. Unfortunately even though I suffer extreme pain with my condition I am not allowed to use opiate pain killers as these make things worse for me in the long run, there are times I do long for the relief that they provide though!

[jabba jones]

 

If anybody has any advice or reasurance I'd be very greatful, should I call the DWP and reiterate to them that although I am ill much of the time I do have sporadic good days?

 

What do you all think?

 

You have nothing to worry about & only have to report an improvement in your condition to the ESA section if it means you are now fit for work.

 

DLA on the other hand is completely different & any changes both good & bad should be reported.

 

I haven't seen the TV program you mention but from similar ones I have seen in the past, what goes on air is a very simplified version of the case, with some of the evidence & how it was obtained either left out or altered.

 

& don't let this put you off claiming DLA. I you think you may qualify, give it a go, be truthful on the claim form & you'll have nothing to worry about!

[charliesgranny]

It was my son that had his DLA stopped and he still has solicitors fighting for him along with doctors and specialists. He has had a terrible time and all because one person thinks they know more than doctors. I saw the tv programme and the lady involved is still getting her benefits but had to repay a lot of money for failing to say she could do more if she took extra medication. The meds probably made her feel rotten and its dreadful to think she has to take so much to try to do normal things.

[Zarbafi]

No, it does not sound fair if she was penalised for basically overdosing on pain meds in order to do something normal - something sounds very wrong about the case.

 

Yes, my mobility is bad most of the time, and increased mobilising on a good day will worsen my ability to mobilise for days afterwards (why I've not been active on the forum the last few days - morphine not so good for brain power).

 

But it sounds like you've done the right thing and been honest about your capabilities, but yes, fluctuating conditions are more difficult to get across. I had a client get dla HRM and HRC for MS, but her condition fluctuated from being completely dependant on another person for care, and unable to mobilise (around 8 months of the year), to (as long as she took things easily) being self caring and able to mobilise 100-200 metres. It was difficult getting everything across and I used extra sheets of paper for the form in order to do this. It is difficult but not impossible. The important thing to show is if your bad days are the majority of the time, then this should qualify you. But if bad days were only, say 7 days in a month then this wouldn't qualify you. I'm a big fan of diary evidence being used, and have had a lot of success with diary evidence with the DWP and Tribunals.

 

Thank you, that has made me feel a bit better about my claim, I did use extra sheets to give as full account of my condition and how it affects me as possible and yes the diary should give them the full picture.

 

 

You have nothing to worry about & only have to report an improvement in your condition to the ESA section if it means you are now fit for work.

 

DLA on the other hand is completely different & any changes both good & bad should be reported.

 

I haven't seen the TV program you mention but from similar ones I have seen in the past, what goes on air is a very simplified version of the case, with some of the evidence & how it was obtained either left out or altered.

 

& don't let this put you off claiming DLA. I you think you may qualify, give it a go, be truthful on the claim form & you'll have nothing to worry about!

 

Jabba, thank you for clearing that up about the difference between DLA and ESA that does make sense and having now looked into this womans case further I believe this case was about her DLA claim rather than ESA. I agree that what you see on this show is very simplified.

 

I would consider apply for DLA but trying to get ESA is stressful enough, I will look further into it though.

 

It was my son that had his DLA stopped and he still has solicitors fighting for him along with doctors and specialists. He has had a terrible time and all because one person thinks they know more than doctors. I saw the tv programme and the lady involved is still getting her benefits but had to repay a lot of money for failing to say she could do more if she took extra medication. The meds probably made her feel rotten and its dreadful to think she has to take so much to try to do normal things.

 

I am sorry to hear about your son losing his DLA it sounds very unfair, cruel even to take away his vital support which his doctors and specialists agree he needs, I hope that he gets a positive resolution to this as soon as possible as the stress must be awful for him and you.

 

I agree that just filming her on that one day when she had taken all that medication to try and have a rare day out and charge her based on that seems draconian. It feels to me that the clock is being turned back and that the sick and disabled no longer have the freedom to try and live as normally as possible without having support withdrawn. The whole thing makes me very sad indeed.

[Surfer01]

I was under the impression that DLA was to help with quality of life. How can you have quality if you have to pop pills all the time to have any form or sense of normality.

[Nystagmite]

Indeed.

 

One thing that was never shown (I wonder why...) was what happened to that woman the day after she'd gone out after taking all that medication? With some medication, there are some really unpleasant side effects and there are people who go out and spend the rest of the week in bed because they're in too much pain, too fatigued, etc.

 

Things like this worry me - I go out by myself a lot (because there's no-one who can go with me) and take part in social stuff, which is difficult. What very few people have seen is that it sometimes has got too much and I'm sat there holding in a meltdown due to sensory overload. One person has seen me have a meltdown and it's no pleasant.

 

We're constantly encouraged by medical people to do stuff; but how can we when we're in constant fear of someone reporting us for having a life?

[charliesgranny]

Nystagmite you have hit the nail on the head here as so many people can something that has a major affect on them for weeks afterwards but, others don`t see this. That lady is still getting DLA as they said she IS entitled to it but she had to pay back what she had claimed prior to her day out. I can`t make sense of that as they addmitted she was ill.

[Surfer01]

We're constantly encouraged by medical people to do stuff; but how can we when we're in constant fear of someone reporting us for having a life?

 

Very true! If you really think about why take your medication?

[jadeybags]

Nystagmite you have hit the nail on the head here as so many people can something that has a major affect on them for weeks afterwards but, others don`t see this. That lady is still getting DLA as they said she IS entitled to it but she had to pay back what she had claimed prior to her day out. I can`t make sense of that as they addmitted she was ill.

 

That puzzled me too, I watched all this weeks programs on catch up yesterday. Although in all honesty, that woman looked as fit as a bloomin fiddle & in the statement she gave, she never actually mentioned once that she feels rough for days after taking loads of meds.

[Nystagmite]

Although in all honesty, that woman looked as fit as a bloomin fiddle

 

Most of us do. Either that, or I look drunk apparently.

[Surfer01]

A lot of types of meds will shorten a person's lifespan by a few years, but obviously that doesn't count. I have RA and the meds suppress my immune system so more likely to pick up colds, flu etc.

[Nystagmite]

That's quite scary. I do know someone who was on medication for epilepsy which made her go blind. 1 in 3 who took this also went blind. Thankfully, it's been banned now.

[estellyn]

Most of us do. Either that, or I look drunk apparently.

 

Me too! I get some really dirty looks when my husband helps his wobbly wife to the car and I get in the driver's seat.

[jadeybags]

The woman at Crufts was walking about, as casual as I can. I love this program. The stroke victim that was filmed being pushed out the doctors in a wheel chair by his carer that was claiming carers allowance for him, that turned out to be his head barmaid in his pub he ran, as soon as he had driven home 10 minutes later he walked no problem to his front door lol

Nick Knowles presents it now, how funny would it be for him to cover the benefit fraud story of his work mate on Rogue traders, Dan Penteado!

Ooops not Nick Knowls, the other one, Matt Allwight.

Edited March 9, 2013 by jadeybags

[Nystagmite]

She may have walked fine; but we don't know what happened after. That is, she may have spent the next few days in bed because of the pain. As she said, she took a lot of medication. Some disabled people do have days where they can walk with no problems at all.

 

Some disabled people who claim HRM for being unable to walk, can walk a short distance before it gets painful. Not all those people actually have problems with their legs. Some people have serious heart / lung diseases. So whilst they are capable of putting one foot in front of the other, it can be exhausting.

[charliesgranny]

Totally agree with the above. Not all disabilities are visible. My neighbour (elderly man) is really ill with his heart but he looks fine.

[Zarbafi]

Most of us do. Either that, or I look drunk apparently.

 

I was thrown out a shop once for looking drunk when an attack caught me short I could hardly speak, see or walk properly and needed help but there security chucked out on the street!

 

A lot of types of meds will shorten a person's lifespan by a few years, but obviously that doesn't count. I have RA and the meds suppress my immune system so more likely to pick up colds, flu etc.

 

This is true, my fathers health has been damaged by the chemo drugs he was given but obviously the pay off is that he is still alive. The drugs I take daily and for attacks damage my heart and raise my already high stroke risk which makes me worry for the future but what can you do except try to limit attacks and get by with as little medication as you can being forced into work will only drive many of us barely coping with an illness or disability into hospital or an early grave but then perhaps that is what they want?