CAI Sent Court Claim, No documents to prove they own alleged debt.

[pavlovthecat]

Hi everyone.

 

On saturday I received a court claim from Northampton County Court stating that a company called CAI Finance Limited have put in a claim for £1577.55 including interest.

 

They state they were assigned a debt allegedly owed to Bank of Scotland PLC dating back to a credit card from 2003 which I apparantly defaulted on in 2010.

 

It states they were assigned the alleged debt in August 2012.

 

Wit a reference number relating to the credit card and that they sent a letter to me in September notifying me they were assigned the debt.

 

There is no paperwork with it to state that they own the debt, that the debt is in default, or that the debt is actually mine.

 

I dont to my knowledge owe Bank of Scotland this sum of money. It is the wrong amount.

 

The last contact I had with Halifax which I guess is what the debt is relating to,

was when I tried to arrange a payment plan for a much lower amount over the telephone which they refused to do, stating I had to pay in full.

 

I then received a normal credit card statement requesting full payment.

I was not aware the agreement was terminated or that the account was even closed.

 

I do recall receiving a letter from a company stating they owned the debt a while ago and I did not keep the letter, but I recall that it was First Credit?

I have no knowledge of CAI or the amount of money they stating, even without interest added.

 

I never sent First Credit a SAR or disputed the debt. Is it too late to do that now?

Can I ask for them to prove they own the alleged debt,

or do I have to now accept that they can purchase a debt for a low amount,

then make up a figure about what I owe and I have to pay?

 

I have been dumb ignoring the halifax debt, but I was hoping that they would just leave it for a while.

I have been unwell and have had money issues so didn't deal with it properly.

 

Now I regret that as this is a pre-2007 credit agreement.

 

Can I do anything to stop this becoming a CCJ for an amount I don't even owe?

[pavlovthecat]

'do now to my knowledge' - sorry that should read 'don't to my knowledge'

[citizenB]

As court papers have been issued, I have moved you to the "legal issues" forums.

 

There is a time line to be adhered to so can you please let us know what the date of issue is - top right hand corner of the claim form.

 

Also can you let us know what exactly they say they are claiming for.. leave off any personal information.

 

timeline is:

 

Date of issue + 5 days for service + 14 days to acknowledge + 14 days extra to submit your defence if it is your intention to defend this. (33 days from date of issue)

[citizenB]

So as far as you are aware, you have not been provided with the following before the claim form was issued ?

 

copy of the agreement

Default Notice

Notice of Assignment

Letter before Action ?

[citizenB]

Once you have answered the questions above, we can provide you with a draft CPR31.14 which is a request for copies of documents mentioned in the claim.

[pavlovthecat]

I should have said that this claim has been sent by a solicitor company called Judge & Priestly Solicitors based in Bromley

[pavlovthecat]

CitizenB, thank you for replying - no, they have not given me anything before this was sent. I have received a letter in the past stating the debt was assigned to 1st credit, i presume it said that, but I didn't keep the letter and can't remember what it said. I know for sure I have never seen a copy of the credit agreement or any other info either then or since.

 

The claim is dated 28 February 2013.

 

The particulars state

'the claimant claims the sum of £1577.15 for debt and interest. On 09/09/2003 the defendant entered into an agreement with Bank of Scotland PLC for a credit card and was assigned reference no. xxxxxx

On 24/04/2010 the defendant defaulted on the agreement. The outstanding balance at the time of default was £1,507.44. On 31/07/2012 the debt of £1,507.44 was assigned to CAI Finance Ltd. Notice of assignment was given to the defendant in writing on 20/08/2012 AND THE CLAIMANT CLAIMS

1. The sum of £1,507.44

2. Statutory interest persuant to Section 69 of the County Court Act 1984 at a rate of 8.00% oer annum from 31/07/2012 to 27/02/2013 69.71 and thereafter at a daily rate of 0.33 until judgment or sooner payment.

 

IF YOU WISH TO SPEAK TO US REGARDING THIS CLAIM THEN PLEASE CALL 0208 290 7370'

[pavlovthecat]

In relation to the 'default' do you mean ever, or from this company? kI think Halifax told me I had defaulted, a long long time ago now, but they didn't close the account, they continued to send me letters for quite a while, just normal statements, and the amount was not for this amount. I am not sure if I kept them, I will be looking today.

[pavlovthecat]

Do you know, I think I DID send a SAR, to Halifax, in 2011. But, I have no record of it now. I remember because I have been looking at my old CAG posts. I knew I had sent one in relation to another debt from Halifax as they overcharged me and had sent another one to Halifax, pretty sure of that! I am going to dig my old computer out, as the copy will be on that.

[citizenB]

When I say a Default Notice, I mean a letter that would have been headed..

 

Default Notice issued under the Credit Consumer Act 1974 - s87(1) - it should have advised why they were sending it eg you are in default of the terms of the agreement and there are arrears amounting to £X amount. The clause you have breached and an amount of 14 clear days in which to remedy the breach at which time, if you havent remedied then they would be able to take further action.

 

Halifax were notorious for not giving the correct amount of time because they didnt make any allowance for posting the Notice (2 working days for 1st class and 4 working days for 2nd class mail)

 

Unfortunately, it is going to be no good requesting a copy as these are templated letters and they are not obliged to keep a copy - just record on their logs that one was sent (although that doesnt mean one actually was! )

 

I think you will find that CAI finance is actually 1st Credit. They changed their name just recently.

 

When was the last time you made payment to the account ? Was there any Payment Protection Insurance with the card and do you know if there are any default charges added the outstanding balance ?

 

Ok, your timeline is

 

Issue date 28th February + 5 for service = 5th March + 14 days to acknowledge = 19th March + 14 days to submit a defence (if you are intending to defend) = 2nd April 2013.

[citizenB]

Did they not comply with your Subject Access Request ?

[citizenB]

 

Dear Sir or Madam,

 

Re: (Claimant's name) v (Your name) Case No:

 

CPR 31.14 Request

 

On (date) I received the Claim Form in this case issued by you out of the (Name) County Court.

 

I confirm having returned my acknowledgement of service to the court in which I indicate my intention to contest all of your claim.

 

[Prior to the issue of proceedings I had delivered a request for the production of the agreement mentioned in the Claim Form and

on which you rely. That request was ignored]

[delete if no such request was delivered]

 

 

Please treat this letter as my request made under CPR 31.14 for the disclosure and the production of a

verified and legible copy of [each of the following / the] document(s) mentioned in your Particulars of Claim:

 

1: the agreement. You will appreciate that in an ordinary case and by reason of the provisions of CPR PD 16 para 7.3, where

a claim is based upon a written agreement, a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached

to or served with the particulars of claim and the original(s) should be available at the hearing. Further, that any general conditions

incorporated in the contract should also be attached.

 

2: the assignment

3: the default notice

4: statements or statement of account showing how the balance demanded in the claim has accrued -

to identify any default/penalty charges.

Although your claim is for a sum which is not more than £5,000.00 and will in all likelihood be allocated to the small claims track

for determination upon my delivering a defence, at this moment in time I have not delivered my defence and the case has not been

allocated to a track. In consequence the provisions of CPR 27(2) are of no effect and you should not seek to avoid compliance with

your CPR 31 duties by claiming otherwise.

 

 

 

You should ensure compliance with your CPR 31 duties and ensure that the document(s) I have requested are copied to and received

by me within 7 days of receiving this letter. Your CPR 31 duties extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for the originals

of the documents I have requested, the better for you to be able to verify the document's authenticity and to provide me with a

legible copy. Further, where I have requested a copy of a document, the original of which is now in the possession of another person, you

will have a right to possession of that document if you have mentioned it in your case. You must take immediate steps to recover and preserve

it for the purpose of this case.

 

Where I have mentioned a document and there is in your possession more than one version of that same document owing to a modification,

obliteration or other marking or feature, each version will be a separate document and you must provide a copy of each version of it to me. Your

obligations extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for any version(s) to include an obligation to recover and preserve such version(s)

which are now in the possession of a third party.

 

In accordance with CPR 31.15© I undertake to be responsible for your reasonable copying costs

incurred in complying with this CPR 31.14 request.

 

If you require more time in which to comply with this request you must tell me in writing. You

must tell me before the time for compliance with this request has expired. In telling me you require more time you must tell me what

steps you have taken and propose to take in order to comply with this request and also state a date by when you will comply with this request.

In addition your statement must be accompanied with a statement that you agree to an extension of the time for me to file my defence. Your extension

of time must be not less than 14 days from the date when you say you will have complied with my request and you must state the new date for filing my defence.

 

If you are unable to comply with this request and believe that you will never be able to comply with this

request you must tell me in writing.

 

Please note that if you should fail to comply with this request, fail to request more time or fail to

agree to an extension of time for the filing of my defence, I will make an application to the court for an order that the proceedings be

struck out or stayed for non-compliance and a summary costs order.

 

I do hope this will not be necessary and look forward to hearing from you.

 

yours faithfully

 

 

YOU MUST SIGN THIS EITHER IN YOUR OWN HANDWRITING OR DIGITALLY

 

Ok, this letter must be sent to the solicitor acting on behalf of the claimant - send it at the very least by Recorded Delivery Mail so you can track it. Read it and make the adjustments/amendments where indicated.

[pavlovthecat]

No, they didn't comply with the SAR, and I forgot all about it but I can't prove that I sent it as I can't find a copy of the letter i sent. I would have sent it by email to my work to print off, but, unfortunately they did a complete clear-out of emails last year and everything was gone. But I will look just in case.

 

I paid money into the account about 3 years ago. I have no idea if there are default charges, I guess that would have happened? And maybe that has added to the amount which is why is seems an awful lot higher than I recognise? Can CAI add charges to it?

 

Thank you so much for helping me. I really appreciate your time and experience. I am going to look at the letter and get it sent today.

 

With regard to the Court Claim - Do I defend the whole claim? And do I contest Jurisdiction? Do I need to do that today? and do I need to provide any evidence now why I am contesting jurisdiction/defending the claim?

 

Thanks again

[pavlovthecat]

No PIP I don't think.

[pavlovthecat]

what I mean by 'defend the claim' is, when I do the Ackowledgement of Service, do I need to evidence why I am choosing that route and why I am contesting?

[pavlovthecat]

I am getting the letter sent today. It is fab.

 

Sorry, you already answered my question about the acknowledgement of service. So I don't have to Acknowledge until 19th March. And by that time, the Solicitor should have responded to my letter with what I have asked for?

What do I need to do if they don't give me the information I have asked for?

[citizenB]

You dont have to contest jurisdiction - it will automatically be transferred to your local court should they proceed after looking at your defence.

 

Sadly, I cant say whether or not you should defend or not.

 

You could if you wish, try to negotiate a deal BEFORE submitting a defence. But you really need information first, to see just how strong your position is.

 

If you did receive a NoA, I think that that would have been the time to contact 1st Credit and perhaps come to an arrangement.

 

What you dont want though is to end up paying interest or any of their court costs to date.

 

I think it might be too late for you to send another subject access request, so perhaps wait and see what you receive back from them in respect of the CPR request.

 

You should acknowledge a couple of days prior to the 19th March - that way if there are any problems with the online service you can either email or contact Northampton to ensure you acknowledge on time.

 

Even if you acknowledge service, it doesnt mean that you have to submit a defence if you think you might want to negotiate with CAI (1st credit), then you can do so.

[pavlovthecat]

ok, I will send the letter and see how it goes. I agree I should have dealt with it then. but last year was a very Bad Time as I have degenerative Disc Disease and so was in a permanent state of fogginess and pain! I did try to agree a payment with Halifax years ago, but they were not interested. I know the amount owed was less than £1000 at the time so the charges appear horrendous.

 

I will see what happens. Thanks again for your prompt advice and information.

[pavlovthecat]

Interesting also that CAI are First Credit!

[citizenB]

Interesting also that CAI are First Credit!

 

I believe they changed their name only just very recently.

[pavlovthecat]

That'll be why it took me a while to figure out what this might all be related to.

[pavlovthecat]

ok, I have had a look at my paperwork, the stuff that I have kept, and the balance that CAI claim I owe is not what a statement that was issued after the alleged default date states I owe. This states £1175. This amount was sent to me in statements for a number of months, with no additional charges included. So I really have no idea where the additional £325 came from. I might call them and try to argue that once I have given the time to produce all the documents I have asked for.

 

Also, I said there was no PIP on the card. There was Card Protection Fee at £15 per month from 2003 - to at least 2007 as I have just found a statement with that on it. I don't know when I would have taken that off. Is that PIP? If so, what can I do about that? I have left it too late haven't I?

[pavlovthecat]

Ok, one more thing to ask!

 

If they can't provide the information, does that mean that the court does not have jurisdiction to hear the case, in that legally this cannot be enforced if there is no paperwork to show that CAI are legally entitled to claim this money from me?

 

(or, maybe I have misunderstood what disputing the jurisdiction means?)

[pavlovthecat]

I sent off the letter today by recorded delivery. I also sent off a CCA request with £1 postal order, I know it's too late really but worth a go I thought, seeing as if they choose to ignore giving me the info by one route, they will have to give it to me using the other route. If, of course they have the documents I have requested.

[Ganymede]

Ok, one more thing to ask!

 

If they can't provide the information, does that mean that the court does not have jurisdiction to hear the case, in that legally this cannot be enforced if there is no paperwork to show that CAI are legally entitled to claim this money from me?

 

(or, maybe I have misunderstood what disputing the jurisdiction means?)

 

 

Yes you have. Jurisdiction is basically where you live and if the Court has the power to hear a case if it is brought outside of England & Wales for example.