work programme after 2 years

[Mr K]

Well at my local JCP you can't have anyone with you unless they are school age children, if you have someone with you they have to wait outside the building for you and they certainly can't come upstairs when you go for your interview...(they have even removed the table and chairs from waiting area so you can't hang around)

 

There is usually a line in the appointment letters that they send which states that you can take someone in but the job centre can get very busy. I asked the manager last time I went in and he had no problems with taking a note taker in. His attitude was "the government tell us what to do, we don't necessarily agree, but its our job".

 

I think a lot of advisors fear getting caught red handed coming over as bullying and intimidating. I was told by the manager that all GL24 appeal forms and information regarding making a complaint had been removed from our job centre and we now had to look online for instructions on how to go about it.

 

As far as I'm aware less than 24 hours and zero hour contracts we are able to refuse.

[Mr.P]

You couldn't make it up!

She said -you are signing on tomorrow, I said no I am signing OFF today. I now have to go in on Friday to physically sign off!!

 

You do not have to go in tomorrow, or any other day to "sign off". You can send a simple letter to your local office stating that you wish to close your claim for unspecified reasons as of 4th September 2013. Alternatively, return your little JCP issued signing on booklet (do they still issue them ?), filling in the back page with your last day of unemployment.

[LongHairedLily]

You do not have to go in tomorrow, or any other day to "sign off". You can send a simple letter to your local office stating that you wish to close your claim for unspecified reasons as of 4th September 2013. Alternatively, return your little JCP issued signing on booklet (do they still issue them ?), filling in the back page with your last day of unemployment.

 

Hi Mr P I don't have green and grey booklet thingy since two weeks ago, the said book has made its way through my Rabbits digestive tract along with partial £10 note... I beautiful bun spied the contents of my handbag on the floor overnight and thought it was a night time snack. I have a job interview today so may not need to sign off as aself employed just yet. I will find out if I have the job tomorrow.

[jasta11]

Just noticed this FOI response regarding the need for the JC to retain your jobsearch evidence so I thought I'd post it here. A little bit more knowledge and power for us.

 

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/can_jobcentre_plus_keep_a_copy_o

 

Apparently the JC can retain our jobsearch evidence if they have a 'business need' - hmm..that gives them a lot of scope, doesn't it! More interesting is the statement that they can only retain it for 4 weeks, unless there's a sanction doubt going on, in which case they can retain it for up to 14 months after the end of your claim.

 

We've all read cases of the JC contacting clients and saying 'you didn't apply for X vacancy 3 months ago' yet according to this info, this shouldn't happen as they're not supposed to even have the records after four weeks. No doubt the usual 'do as I say, not as I do' which we've all come to expect from the JC.

 

It still at least gives you the right to question the advisor as to what their 'business need' is to retain your jobsearch evidence.

 

...plus I always ask my advisor to sign and date my jobsearch sheet to prove it met the requirement of my JSAg at the time.

[JustInterested]

Just noticed this FOI response regarding the need for the JC to retain your jobsearch evidence so I thought I'd post it here. A little bit more knowledge and power for us.

 

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/can_jobcentre_plus_keep_a_copy_o

 

Apparently the JC can retain our jobsearch evidence if they have a 'business need'

 

That may be so but it doesn't change the fact that you are perfectly entitled to give your job search evidence orally. So they can retain whatever they personally write down from what you tell them but you don't have to give them anything in writing!

[jasta11]

Very true! I find now that advisors - in my JC at least - aren't even writing anything down when I sign on, they barely glance at my jobsearch log whereas one time they'd copy down each job onto their system then 2 weeks later when I signed on they'd ask 'Did you hear anything back from X job you applied for a while ago?'.

 

Probably due to the very limited time the advisors have to spend with each client, plus all the Post Work Program returners they have to see too. Suits me; the less time they have to see me, the better.

[Lorise]

My advisor is the same because I haven't given them permission to view my UJ account I write all my job searching down when I last saw my advisor she asked what I had done, give her my note book with it all detailed she opened the first page and went this is no good I need to see dates of everything you did, I told her if you look I have dated every day that I have job searched and every job I have applied for if you turn over the pages, she quickly glanced then went back telling me how much easier it would be if I just let them view my UJ account.

She then said what jobs have you applied for, again I pointed out my notebook (which she still had and not bothered reading) and told her it is all detailed in there the same as what was put in my UJ she never bothered looking she spent my whole session with her trying to get me to agree to them having permission to my UJ account.

She said all excited that she had done a job search for me and had found .......two jobs then she read them and said oops sorry one is no good you are too old, it was for a apprenticeship ( I am 38)

She then said what time does your child get out of school, I said 2:30pm she then made my next appointment for 3:30pm....thankfully my child is old enough to be left alone but why ask that then make sure I won't be there for my child coming home, they really are getting worse.

[Mr.P]

She said all excited that she had done a job search for me [...] what time does your child get out of school, I said 2:30pm she then made my next appointment for 3:30pm....[...] they really are getting worse.

 

Time for the Joyce Grenfell voice.... (if you can remember some of her nursery teacher monologues and "How to talk to children")

[martindn]

So i have to apply for 20 jobs a fortnight, daily signing on, and of course i was told it was mandatory to give them access to UJM which i declined, and was forthright insulted with "Well we have paid you for 2 years now" etc etc.

 

But i dont mind, you expect that but whats worse is the daily signing on was so unexpected, i mean i got paid over a week ago can i claim bus fair back? Its £10.50 i dont have until saturday. Cant wait for the mandatory work activity either while some poor *** loses his job i take over for free. While still being forced to do 35 hour job search of course.

Edited September 16, 2013 by honeybee13
Language.

[hatsanman]

keep on plugging away

Edited September 16, 2013 by hatsanman

[martindn]

I know it will only be 2 or 3 weeks so its not a problem if they actually "help me" instead of trying to trick me into a sanction or signing off. I will be quite ****ed off if it turns out she only put me on daily signing just out of spite of not being able to snoop on my activity, i am only exercising my rights. I am more concerned about the cost. Am i able to claim any costs incurred when catching the bus?

 

Can anyone also provide any data on what they call an "Information session"? Its the first thing i am made to go to today, i assume it basically is telling you everything you already know.

[hatsanman]

I know it will only be 2 or 3 weeks so its not a problem if they actually "help me" instead of trying to trick me into a sanction or signing off. I will be quite ****ed off if it turns out she only put me on daily signing just out of spite of not being able to snoop on my activity, i am only exercising my rights. I am more concerned about the cost. Am i able to claim any costs incurred when catching the bus?

 

Can anyone also provide any data on what they call an "Information session"? Its the first thing i am made to go to today, i assume it basically is telling you everything you already know.

you can indeed claim for travelling for any day attending which is not your normal signing day Edited September 16, 2013 by hatsanman

[martindn]

you can indeed claim for travelling for any day attending which is not your normal signing day so keep your bus tickets. yes you are right information day is them telling you what you allready know because they are so slow telling you something they should of done weeks ago. they are not there to help anyone at the mo as all they are interested in is sanctioning as many as they can and they dont care how they do it, getting you to go on yet another course, apply for part time jobs on min wage and thats about all you will get from them. when i first met my advisor 2 months ago he said i will check your uj acount every other week and signing on week they will check it. now he said he hasnt got the time to check it so will only be checked when i sign every fortnight. i didnt want to sign up to uj or give them acces but i did and cant belive how easy its made it for me. no more paperwork to do and no going to jcp everyday. you have to make it easy for yourself when you can and just attend with a big smile on your face

 

There is the easy way, and the right way all a matter of personal choice i guess. I just find that UJM is terrible, and the jobs they advertise are either zero hour contracts, part time, or fictional. Plus i have to remember that stupid gateway number and giving access to an advisor who cares little about my privacy and only about sanction targets is not a good move if i dont have to. As long as i am applying for my work targets and can show that on more reputable sites with screenshots i do not think it should matter. Do you have to go weekly now that you give them access?

 

How do you go about reclaiming bus fair then? Do you ask when you sign on on a irregular day?

Edited September 16, 2013 by honeybee13

[martindn]

hatsanman did you have to do a very basic 10 minute maths/english test at your "information session"? An hours bus journey, and £3.20 later for a test which could be completed in 2 minutes. (I think i have to do the same thing at connexions this thursday too).

Edited September 16, 2013 by honeybee13

[sillygirl1]

I did the English test in about 5 minutes and the maths in 7, without a calculator! The lady supervising the test was astonished that I could to percentages on paper, and long and short division....

 

I did take my time in the English test, and had to do the same tests when I saw the next lot along the line.

[Lorise]

Brace yourselves for my long rant (SORRY)

 

Been to my 3rd JCP interview since I returned for WP, Advisor was a few minutes late (no sorry was mentioned) advisor asked how my job search was going I said ok, not a lot on the sites at the moment, mostly temp work or jobs that are 4 hours a week, was about to tell her about the jobs I have applied for when she asked me had I give them access to my UJ yet, I said no, she didn't even ask or look at my job search evidence after that, she said now that my child is 14 I can't now restrict the hours/days I work (even though I am a singe parent) so she changed my JSA agreement to state that. She then did a job search for me and said there was a two week course I could go on, it was at a local college, it was two days out of each week 9am until 4pm, and it was to do a online assessment of how to work for John Lewis, it starts this Thursday, she asked me how I felt about it, I told her I have worked in department stores and I have qualifications in retail, NVQs in retail and Customer service so don't feel I would learn anything new from that course, I then also added (my own fault) that I was looking after my baby niece that Thursday as my brother has to go to a work meeting up in Edinburgh that day and he was stuck for someone to watch her, my advisor then said you really should of said no as it is not your job to look after her you should be available for work.

 

This is what made me mad yes I know our job while on JSA is to find work, but this isn't a job interview I am turning down to babysit it is a course that isn't mandatory and I really don't need to do, of course if it was a interview with a chance of a job after it I would of done it, in fact last year I cancelled my son's birthday plans we had as I had a job interview that day, he was upset but understood I need to find a job, so he spent his birthday alone at home.

 

So in their eyes we can't plan anything on any day in case a course pops up that we need to attend at short notice. (job interviews I would attend) she then asked for my Cv I was told to bring in, as she keeps telling me she can't view mine on my UJ as I haven't given them access, she then picked at it and told me to look for a job club in my area and ask them to sort it out for me (like many others Ingeus had already changed it when I first went there to their standards) as she says it doesn't pop.

she then printed off a few jobs for me to apply to as she kindly reminded me she couldn't save them for me on my UJ as I haven't given them access.

Rant over sorry for wasting those few minutes of your lifes haha

[jasta11]

How do you go about reclaiming bus fair then? Do you ask when you sign on on a irregular day?

 

Here's a quote from the DWP guidance on paying expenses current as of 19th July;

 

'The claimant is entitled to have their full travel expenses reimbursed if:

Their appointment is held in their normal office of attendance but not on the normal attendance day (the day that they would normally attend a fortnightly Jobsearch Review)

They are a postal claimant who is attending an advisory interview; or it was not possible to notify them of a cancelled appointment and they subsequently attend the office. However, this will only apply if it is not possible for the claimant to be seen that day.

Always pay travel expenses to claimants who are entitled to them. Payment does not depend upon the claimant asking.'

 

So you shouldn't even need to ask for expenses - but I bet you'll have to as they often 'conveniently' forget to offer them if you don't ask. Another quote from the same document;

 

'Arrange for travel expenses to be paid at the start of the interview. This will allay any worry or uncertainty on the claimant's part.'

 

Regarding screenprints off your UJ account, you don't have to provide them, as this quote from a FOI response from DWP Central Office dated 22nd July states;

 

'In response to the question you have raised about requiring jobsearch evidence from UniversalJobmatch. Advisers cannot mandate claimants to give them access to their Universal Jobmatch account, nor can they force a claimant to print out screen prints of their UJ account.'

 

Regarding the Group Information session you're due to attend, the following guidance might be of help;

 

'Jobseeker Directions for Group Information Sessions

By law claimants cannot be mandated to attend a Group Information Session by means of a Jobseeker Direction, unless the Personal Adviser can demonstrate that attendance at the Group Information Session will assist the claimant to find employment; or improve the claimant to find employment.

If the Personal Adviser can demonstrate the above, a Jobseeker Direction can be issued making attendance at the Group Information Session mandatory for that claimant. If not, a Jobseeker Direction must not be issued and attendance at the Group Information Session is voluntary'

 

What it's saying is that these information sessions are not mandatory unless the adviser can show it would benefit you - for example, if the session was about creating a CV and you already had a CV you could argue that this would not benefit you.

Edited September 16, 2013 by jasta11

[jasta11]

Brace yourselves for my long rant (SORRY)

 

Been to my 3rd JCP interview since I returned for WP, Advisor was a few minutes late (no sorry was mentioned) advisor asked how my job search was going I said ok, not a lot on the sites at the moment, mostly temp work or jobs that are 4 hours a week, was about to tell her about the jobs I have applied for when she asked me had I give them access to my UJ yet, I said no, she didn't even ask or look at my job search evidence after that, she said now that my child is 14 I can't now restrict the hours/days I work (even though I am a singe parent) so she changed my JSA agreement to state that. She then did a job search for me and said there was a two week course I could go on, it was at a local college, it was two days out of each week 9am until 4pm, and it was to do a online assessment of how to work for John Lewis, it starts this Thursday, she asked me how I felt about it, I told her I have worked in department stores and I have qualifications in retail, NVQs in retail and Customer service so don't feel I would learn anything new from that course, I then also added (my own fault) that I was looking after my baby niece that Thursday as my brother has to go to a work meeting up in Edinburgh that day and he was stuck for someone to watch her, my advisor then said you really should of said no as it is not your job to look after her you should be available for work.

 

This is what made me mad yes I know our job while on JSA is to find work, but this isn't a job interview I am turning down to babysit it is a course that isn't mandatory and I really don't need to do, of course if it was a interview with a chance of a job after it I would of done it, in fact last year I cancelled my son's birthday plans we had as I had a job interview that day, he was upset but understood I need to find a job, so he spent his birthday alone at home.

 

So in their eyes we can't plan anything on any day in case a course pops up that we need to attend at short notice. (job interviews I would attend) she then asked for my Cv I was told to bring in, as she keeps telling me she can't view mine on my UJ as I haven't given them access, she then picked at it and told me to look for a job club in my area and ask them to sort it out for me (like many others Ingeus had already changed it when I first went there to their standards) as she says it doesn't pop.

she then printed off a few jobs for me to apply to as she kindly reminded me she couldn't save them for me on my UJ as I haven't given them access.

Rant over sorry for wasting those few minutes of your lifes haha

 

Everything the JC do has to be 'reasonable in the claimants circumstances' - which means that if you're already considerably quailified in something (as you are with retail) then they shouldn't be sending you on courses to teach you things you already know. Have you thought of referring the matter to a senior manager at the JC? (Assuming they're even remotely interested, naturally).

 

Also, if the advisor is always harping on about you not giving access to your UJ account, you could report her. They know perfectly well they can't make anyone give them access and to keep bringing it up every time she sees you is pure harassment and intimidation.

[martindn]

Here's a quote from the DWP guidance on paying expenses current as of 19th July;

 

'The claimant is entitled to have their full travel expenses reimbursed if:

Their appointment is held in their normal office of attendance but not on the normal attendance day (the day that they would normally attend a fortnightly Jobsearch Review)

They are a postal claimant who is attending an advisory interview; or it was not possible to notify them of a cancelled appointment and they subsequently attend the office. However, this will only apply if it is not possible for the claimant to be seen that day.

Always pay travel expenses to claimants who are entitled to them. Payment does not depend upon the claimant asking.'

 

So you shouldn't even need to ask for expenses - but I bet you'll have to as they often 'conveniently' forget to offer them if you don't ask. Another quote from the same document;

 

Thanks for the info, i am sure they will try to get out of paying it though, for example i am due to sign on tommorow which is not my regular attendance day (wednesday) but because i am now on a daily signing on program could they perhaps imply it is my usual attendance day until i cease going daily?

[Lorise]

Everything the JC do has to be 'reasonable in the claimants circumstances' - which means that if you're already considerably quailified in something (as you are with retail) then they shouldn't be sending you on courses to teach you things you already know. Have you thought of referring the matter to a senior manager at the JC? (Assuming they're even remotely interested, naturally).

 

Also, if the advisor is always harping on about you not giving access to your UJ account, you could report her. They know perfectly well they can't make anyone give them access and to keep bringing it up every time she sees you is pure harassment and intimidation.

 

First thank you for your reply.

 

I may well have to complain about her if she does the same at my next appointment.

 

I also mentioned to her that a job I printed off their job point a fortnight ago was non existent as the job I printed off was for a certain shop in a area near me 20 hours a week (perfect for me ) I tried to apply when I got home that day it wasn't there so called into the shop the job was at ( as live near by) even the staff said they was not a job for 20 hours it was a 4 hour a week job for a Saturday girl, to which my advisor replied to me that I must of went to the wrong shop...I told her there was only one of this brand of shop in the whole area, she still wouldn't have it that they had advertised the wrong details.

 

I get when claiming JSA we have to be available for work and seeking work but surely I can help out my family if as far as I know I have no plans or job interviews, do they honestly believe we should stay at home job searching 9 til 5 ( I know that is IDS next plan ha)

while I was there a lad came in to sign on shouting the top of his voice telling all the staff he was back on his meds, the security guy showed him to a seat came over to a JC staff member who this lad was due to see, said something to her she turned round and told the security guy that the lad was f**king full of ****...(sorry for my language just repeating her words) and she works there and talks aloud about a JSA claimant like that in front of others , fair enough in the staff room as I am sure they get a lot of hassle daily, but not on the floor where everyone can hear....god roll on when I get work.

[hatsanman]

hatsanman did you have to do a very basic 10 minute maths/english test at your "information session"? An hours bus journey, and £3.20 later for a test which could be completed in 2 minutes. (I think i have to do the same thing at connexions this thursday too).

no when i started back with joke centre no maths or english test. i have been on many many couses over the past 3 years mind you so maybe they are running out of them. might depend on what your final report said when finishing with job provder?

Edited September 16, 2013 by honeybee13
Removing old name.

[RebeccaPidgeon]

First thank you for your reply.

 

I may well have to complain about her if she does the same at my next appointment.

 

I also mentioned to her that a job I printed off their job point a fortnight ago was non existent as the job I printed off was for a certain shop in a area near me 20 hours a week (perfect for me ) I tried to apply when I got home that day it wasn't there so called into the shop the job was at ( as live near by) even the staff said they was not a job for 20 hours it was a 4 hour a week job for a Saturday girl, to which my advisor replied to me that I must of went to the wrong shop...I told her there was only one of this brand of shop in the whole area, she still wouldn't have it that they had advertised the wrong details.

 

I get when claiming JSA we have to be available for work and seeking work but surely I can help out my family if as far as I know I have no plans or job interviews, do they honestly believe we should stay at home job searching 9 til 5 ( I know that is IDS next plan ha)

while I was there a lad came in to sign on shouting the top of his voice telling all the staff he was back on his meds, the security guy showed him to a seat came over to a JC staff member who this lad was due to see, said something to her she turned round and told the security guy that the lad was f**king full of ****...(sorry for my language just repeating her words) and she works there and talks aloud about a JSA claimant like that in front of others , fair enough in the staff room as I am sure they get a lot of hassle daily, but not on the floor where everyone can hear....god roll on when I get work.

It is your choice.... I would write to my MP on the issue, and send a copy to the Manager of the Job Centre.

[jasta11]

Thanks for the info, i am sure they will try to get out of paying it though, for example i am due to sign on tommorow which is not my regular attendance day (wednesday) but because i am now on a daily signing on program could they perhaps imply it is my usual attendance day until i cease going daily?

 

I don't think they could reasonably expect an unemployed person to suddenly start forking out bus fares every single day - in my case it costs me six quid each time I go to the jobcentre so no way could I be expected to pay that on a daily basis.

 

The way I see the guidelines, 'normal' signing for everyone is once a fortnight and if they want people to attend at any other times then it's all classed as 'extra attendance' and has to be paid for. A few underlined extracts from the Jobsearch Review guidelines which I assume would apply to PWP clients too;

 

Timing of Jobsearch Reviews

10. Claimants can be required to attend more regularly for Jobsearch Reviews.

For example, weekly, if desired.

11. Claimants will continue to be paid fortnightly, even if attending more

frequently.

12. When arranging weekly attendance, claimants should be told:

that the aim is to provide extra help and support;

that failure to attend may lead to a sanction and loss of benefit;

when they are required to attend. The requirement to attend is formally

notified to claimants by the completion of an ES40 label (ES40L) and it

being attached to their ES40 booklet;

that they will be reimbursed travel expenses for attending the extra reviews

15. Arrangements should be made to reimburse claimants their travel expenses

for weeks where they would not normally have attended the office, regardless of

whether they ask for them or not.

Edited September 17, 2013 by jasta11

[sillygirl1]

Don't forget to log all the daily signing on sessions - length of time to travel to them etc as it should form part of your job log.

 

Play them at their own game and they will eventually give up.

[martindn]

The way I see the guidelines, 'normal' signing for everyone is once a fortnight and if they want people to attend at any other times then it's all classed as 'extra attendance' and has to be paid for. A few underlined extracts from the Jobsearch Review guidelines which I assume would apply to PWP clients too;

 

I got reimbursed today i had even printed off the information you pasted in case i had trouble, but to be fair i had a really nice advisor and she asked me for my ticket without me even asking, so its all good. Thanks for the help anyway i am sure i will need to ask one of them in future.

 

in my case it costs me six quid each time I go to the jobcentre so no way could I be expected to pay that on a daily basis.

 

Guess its a benefit of living in a smaller town you have to pay less for the bus, its £2.10 return and £10 for a weekly pass for me, at least you get it all back, that must hurt though if you had to travel to a job/job interview - damn.

 

Don't forget to log all the daily signing on sessions - length of time to travel to them etc as it should form part of your job log.

 

When i fill my log out its usually just the jobs i have applied for, i never bother adding in where or what i travel for, or the websites i visit, saves a lot of hassle.