work programme after 2 years

[jasta11]

I don't think the Post Work Programme is related to anything sensible or serious; it's just basically a more intense version of what they already do - and it's plain to anyone that the whole thing has been thrown together in a hurry to cope with the mass of people who didn't get a job through the wonderful work programme. If they didn't see all this coming then they're even bigger idiots than I already take them for.

 

I hope my JC advisor does ask me to come in every week - it will actually put money in my pocket as I have to spend money each week going into town for food shopping. This way, they get to pay for my weekly shopping trip into town, saving me £6

 

*added* ..speaking of expenses, just saw this FOI on the 'whatdotheyknow' site. Dated 19th July so quite current. According to Section 10 of the expenses guidelines, they're supposed to pay your expenses right at the start of the interview.

 

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/167004/response/410944/attach/4/Travel%20expenses.pdf

 

The whole document is well worth printing out and keeping if the JC get stroppy about paying out.

Edited July 21, 2013 by jasta11

[jadeybags]

My brother seemed to be ok with this work program thing, but he received a letter saying he didn't go for an interview so will be sanctioned next week he didn't get told about any interview!

[Buzzlegum]

Hey guys, I've been browsing this thread for a couple of days now, and I'm so glad I've found some people who know what I'm going through!

 

I'm 24 years old and graduated from university last year. I've had many jobs in my life and after leaving uni I got a placement at one of London top media companies where I worked for a popular leisure magazine. I have also been working on a voluntary basis at my local Citizens Advice Bureau since April this year. I was referred to the Work Programme (Seetec) in June and they forced me to give up my placement at Citizens Advice, which I think is absolutely backwards.

 

My advisor is being very vindictive, making me attend these brainless group sessions every day. I was forced to take a basic literacy and numeracy test during my induction, even though he knew I had a degree. It actually had questions on it like "5+2=" and questions on how to tell the time. WTF? He's now sending me on a CV writing course, making me participate in some motivational "AIM" session, as well as making me attend a mandatory supervised job search session EVERY DAY for the next two weeks. God knows what is going to happen after that.

 

He's also refusing to reimburse any of my travel expenses as I do not have a discount card. I was only told I could get one of those two days ago!

 

To say I am fuming would be an understatement.

 

Not only is this whole thing pointless and degrading, every time I've been there someone has kicked off or started a fight. Last week someone tried to rip the monitors out of the desk and throw it at one of the advisors! I couldn't beleive it.

 

I'm being treated like I'm stupid and my advisor speaks to me like I'm five years old. I'm finding it really difficult to hold it together at the moment. Why have they done this to me? Surely they should assess people individually, rather than using a "one size fits all" policy. I'm not benefiting from this process at all and it's costing me a lot of money in travel every day to get there.

 

I wasn't depressed until I was put on the Work Programme. I might have to make a visit to the doctor soon because I'm so down about this that I can't even think straight.

 

[san_d]

I don't think the Post Work Programme is related to anything sensible or serious

It is legalized corruption to make the Tory donors (the big contractors and the big corporations recipients of Work Programme 'volunteers') richer. IDS is doing a good job at enforcing the govt agenda.

[Mr.P]

My advisor is being very vindictive, making me attend these brainless group sessions every day. I was forced to take a basic literacy and numeracy test during my induction, even though he knew I had a degree. It actually had questions on it like "5+2=" and questions on how to tell the time. WTF? He's now sending me on a CV writing course, making me participate in some motivational "AIM" session, as well as making me attend a mandatory supervised job search session EVERY DAY for the next two weeks. God knows what is going to happen after that.

 

He's also refusing to reimburse any of my travel expenses as I do not have a discount card. I was only told I could get one of those two days ago!

 

Dealing with the issues in reverse order:

 

Travel Expenses - These should be refunded in full and without conditionality on producing valid tickets or receipts. This is part of their core contractual obligations with the DWP. You should send a written complaint to the provider and the DWP and that you expect reimbursement in full for all outstanding expenses. List the dates, amounts, and the total amount owing (just in case they can't add up).

 

Inappropriate activities - Remind them that support is supposed to be personalised and tailored to your needs and circumstances. On that basis, ask for written evidence to support their actions and challenge anything that you consider degrading or inappropriate.

 

Vindictive or insulting advisers - Remind them that they expect to be treated with dignity and respect. In return, you require the same. If staff wish to pursue a course of insulting, and/or patronising behaviour, then it would be reasonable to respond in kind. Another written complaint to both the provider and the DWP would be in order.

 

I would strongly recommend recording all conversations and demanding copies of any paperwork they present to you. In my dealings with one "provider", I would place a cheap tape recorder on the desk and a cased digital recorder next to it (the latter always on). They soon realised that a degree of civility was the best option on their part most of the time..

 

Oh, and as for requiring you to give up voluntary work - That is something that they should not be doing. If anything, they should encourage it and record it as part of a work related activity. You would also have good reason to refuse to give up the work and make the provider very silly if they tried to sanction you for it.

[Mr.P]

My brother seemed to be ok with this work program thing, but he received a letter saying he didn't go for an interview so will be sanctioned next week he didn't get told about any interview!

 

jadeybags: Has he asked for proof of delivery and a copy of this letter ?

It appears to be a fairly common tactic to record an appointment on their computer and not send out a letter - Some providers will also issue appointments but fail to include all the correct words to make it mandatory and then try to raise a sanction on the back of it.

[jadeybags]

jadeybags: Has he asked for proof of delivery and a copy of this letter ?

It appears to be a fairly common tactic to record an appointment on their computer and not send out a letter - Some providers will also issue appointments but fail to include all the correct words to make it mandatory and then try to raise a sanction on the back of it.

 

From what mum was saying on the phone it was an actual job interview I think, hopefully he will speak to them & ask where the interview notification would have been sent, mum wondered if he hadn't gone on the internet for a while & missed an email or something? I think he has pay as you go dongle or something & doesn't always have internet access. He's not a big internet user tbh. I had a feeling this would happen once they took him off Incap, but he has been doing ok up til now, I think this has put him down again now. He would never NOT go to an interview, he is bored out his brains & says he wants a job now big time, that's why he didn't even mind this work program thing, it gave him something to do!

[Mr.P]

For a job interview, he needs to know who sent the letter out and in what form - If it was a "mandatory notification" from a provider or JCP, it can be challenged if it was via email or text or on the grounds it was never posted. If the letter was from a (potential) employer, citing difficulties accessing email would be one avenue to explore.

[RebeccaPidgeon]

For a job interview, he needs to know who sent the letter out and in what form - If it was a "mandatory notification" from a provider or JCP, it can be challenged if it was via email or text or on the grounds it was never posted. If the letter was from a (potential) employer, citing difficulties accessing email would be one avenue to explore.

Absolutely.... if the letter was from a potential employer, you could raise the issue that the source of the email could have been flagged up as spam or unreliable (ie a source of viruses), and the email could been returned to the employer "undelivered" for this reason.

 

If the employer contests this, you could seek confirmation that i) the email was delivered (some email servers generate a receipt upon delivery), and ii) the email was read (some email servers generate a receipt when the email is read).

[Lorise]

Well been to my first interview back at the JCP since finishing at the WP, was told all people coming off WP will have to do a 3week course at Newcastle College (for the people in and around Newcastle I gather) it will be daily at 9:30am until 3pm (some employment course) it starts 12th Aug/2nd Sept, she then saw that I am a lone parent and have no other family to help watch my child so she isn't making me go on course until a later time, as it would mean my son would be alone for half his school holidays. Also told I have to make a Universal job search account (the normal tripe) and if I make it available to them to view, it will save time when they check up on my progress. I have to visit 2 different job sites 5 times a week each I have to ring 1 employer a week and write after 2 jobs a week also have to visit the evening chronicle once a week so all in all 18 job activities a week, Was told I won't be assigned a advisor just yet as a lot of the staff are off for the summer holidays, but she made sure I knew that they will be checking up on my job search more intensely. So I guess the being treated like a child doesn't end when the WP ends.

[Lin May]

I was told by my personal adviser in Job Centre that I would need to do 35 hours job search which some other people also reported in various forums.

Under Universal Credit, it may be the formal requirement, but at this moment in time, is there any legislation that enforces the 35 hours? (I have never seen regulation)

If it were specified in Job Seeker's Agreement and if I signed, then I'm afraid any failure to prove 35 hours search would lead to sanction.

Is there any ground allowing me to refuse 35 hours job seeking activity or at least avoid signing the agreement that mention it?

[RebeccaPidgeon]

Well been to my first interview back at the JCP since finishing at the WP, was told all people coming off WP will have to do a 3week course at Newcastle College (for the people in and around Newcastle I gather) it will be daily at 9:30am until 3pm (some employment course) it starts 12th Aug/2nd Sept, she then saw that I am a lone parent and have no other family to help watch my child so she isn't making me go on course until a later time, as it would mean my son would be alone for half his school holidays. Also told I have to make a Universal job search account (the normal tripe) and if I make it available to them to view, it will save time when they check up on my progress. I have to visit 2 different job sites 5 times a week each I have to ring 1 employer a week and write after 2 jobs a week also have to visit the evening chronicle once a week so all in all 18 job activities a week, Was told I won't be assigned a advisor just yet as a lot of the staff are off for the summer holidays, but she made sure I knew that they will be checking up on my job search more intensely. So I guess the being treated like a child doesn't end when the WP ends.

Job Centre Plus can issue a Job Seekers Direction which would require you to i) create a IJ Account, ii) create a profile, iii) upload a CV, iv) make that CV searchable...but you appreciate that you do not need to declare any information on the account (such as email address, password), do not need to provide access to any party in DWP.

 

As for being treat as a child...if you read the advice on these boards, you can educate Front Line Advisers within JCP as if they were in kindergarten.

 

I was told by my personal adviser in Job Centre that I would need to do 35 hours job search which some other people also reported in various forums.

Under Universal Credit, it may be the formal requirement, but at this moment in time, is there any legislation that enforces the 35 hours? (I have never seen regulation)

If it were specified in Job Seeker's Agreement and if I signed, then I'm afraid any failure to prove 35 hours search would lead to sanction.

Is there any ground allowing me to refuse 35 hours job seeking activity or at least avoid signing the agreement that mention it?

 

The likelihood will be that Universal Credit will be delayed for an unspecified period of time...but they intend to roll out the Claimant Commitment to all Job Seekers from October, within which it can specify the 35 hours commitment.

 

However, after a Claimant Commitment is prepared, you can appeal against any undue element, and this will be considered by some Decision Maker. However, within the Universal Credit Regulations 2013

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/376/part/2/crossheading/accepting-a-claimant-commitment/made

Claimant commitment – date and method of acceptance

15.—(1) For the basic condition in section 4(1)(e) of the Act, a person who has accepted a claimant commitment within such period after making a claim as the Secretary of State specifies is to be treated as having accepted that claimant commitment on the first day of the period in respect of which the claim is made.

 

(2) In a case where an award may be made without a claim, a person who accepts a claimant commitment within such period as the Secretary of State specifies is to be treated as having accepted a claimant commitment on the day that would be the first day of the first assessment period in relation to the award in accordance with regulation 21(3).

 

(3) The Secretary of State may extend the period within which a person is required to accept a claimant commitment or an updated claimant commitment where the person requests that the Secretary of State review—

 

(a)any action proposed as a work search requirement or a work availability requirement; or

 

(b)whether any limitation should apply to those requirements,

 

and the Secretary of State considers that the request is reasonable.

 

(4) A person must accept a claimant commitment by one of the following methods, as specified by the Secretary of State—

 

(a)electronically;

 

(b)by telephone; or

 

©in writing.

 

Claimant commitment – exceptions

16. A person does not have to meet the basic condition to have accepted a claimant commitment if the Secretary of State considers that—

 

(a)the person cannot accept a claimant commitment because they lack the capacity to do so; or

 

(b)there are exceptional circumstances in which it would be unreasonable to expect the person to accept a claimant commitment.

Edited July 22, 2013 by RebeccaPidgeon
Additional Information Submitted

[tommytech]

I find this whole WP programme shocking , im baffled that this week I will attend this programme even though I have worked from last October to the end of April , whilst signing of last September and back on late may so I was with my provider for approximately 15 months.

 

 

I just cant understand the jobcenters logic , sure if I had been with my provider 2 years without working I could just about understand but im getting treated like I haven’t worked or done anything for 2 years which is shocking and the only excuse they can give is that “it goes on the date you were refereed to that provider” …. surely this has to be wrong when you sign of you have no contact or further contract with DWP or the provider.

 

Another point someone made a few pages back is that you could be refereed to the provider get a job in your first week lose that job a week before your two years is up and still be refereed to this insane post work programme rubbish , madness.

 

Hopefully I can find full-time work soon again , im fairly confident the JCS main aim is to make life unbearable to the point you sign of as opposed to actually finding you work.

Edited July 22, 2013 by tommytech

[Lorise]

The WP is crazy I got a temp job during my time on the WP...thankfully for me those weeks working did still count and went towards my 104 you have to complete I am now done with the WP had my first interview back at the JCP today, a lot of people returning from WP are being put on a 3 week employment course at our (Newcastle ) local college its a all day daily course ( 9:30am to 3pm)they say they will pay for fares to this course but what about lunch time people will be there all day how can they afford to buy lunch I know I can't afford to eat out every day for 3 weeks in town, also can just imagine the great knowledge we will be learning, wish they would just use all the money they waste on these courses and WPs and invest in some businesses that can then employ us guys/gals who want to work.

[jasta11]

Welcome to the club, Tommy - we all share your views. The DWP seem determined to own our souls for 2 years one way or the other. The WP should not be 'carried over' if you sign off benefits totally, it should simply end.

 

If you left a job your employer wouldn't hold your job open for you for 2 years, would they. At least if you've already done 15 months then you're past the half-way mark, so that's some consolation. Make sure you read up on all the info given in these forums so you won't be taken advantage of by the provider or the JC.

[Mr.P]

Is there any ground allowing me to refuse 35 hours job seeking activity or at least avoid signing the agreement that mention it?

 

To receive JSA payments, there is a legal requirement to have agreed and signed a Jobseekers Agreement. A JSAg would have been drawn up the day you first signed on and updated from time to time, usually with increased conditionality. What many people do not realise is that signing a new JSAg is not mandatory and you can ask for it to be referred to a DM - This is usually little more than a delaying tactic, but hopefully by the time it has been through the relevant channels, the front line staff will have forgotten about it.

 

Certainly challenge the 35 hours on the grounds that it would be impossible to provide evidence to demonstrate time spent on job searches each week.

[cyberhead]

what are people actually meant to be doing during this 35 hour job search ,Im about to claim benefits in a few weeks ,surely this day and age you register with agencies etc and search online

for suitable work ,what else are you meant to do most major empmloyers stores etc wont even accept a cv from people ,what do they want people to do,do they provide fares and food for you while your out and about doing these so called searches ,never heard anything so rediculous in my life tbh ,35 hours pmsl ...

[Dom86]

Mr.P

RebeccaPidgeon

Bakatcha

jasta11

 

Thanks for the replies, sorry for late reply.

 

I've been thinking this through, and I'm still not infused by it (MWA), I've been messed around so much, particularity by the Jobcentre / DWP, that its only logically reasonable that I have little faith that the MWA would ever evolve into paid employment, or at least be beneficial to me in some way.

 

I've always been against unpaid work, it doesn't seem acceptable to me that the risk and investment of hiring a new employee has been passed on to the poorest in society, it seems to me that business has used its power with government to remove their responsibility. Also I have plenty of Work Experience, and I would have no problem getting up in the morning and doing a days work, would be delighted to do so providing its paid, or at least was beneficial to society like the work of the Citizens Advice Bureaux.

 

But to be honest I'm desperate for employment so I can have some money, I would be willing to do an unpaid trial for a couple of weeks. But what I'm worried about is that the Contractor (Seetec) wont have anything decent for me, and I'm going to be fighting under threats from the JC and Contractor against doing something I don't believe to be beneficial or have a good outcome.

 

Anyway, I don't think I can attend on Wednesday anyway, its an immensely difficult town to get to, cant find any transportation at the moment, and I don't have enough change either to pay for the immensely expensive public transport around here.

 

I'm going to give them a ring later on today and see what they have to offer, and also ask if I can attend at an office which is less hassle to get to, its at least a 2-and-a-half-hour journey from memory using public transport, despite how the town is only 15 miles way!

Edited July 23, 2013 by Dom86

[Dom86]

I have to do 5 hour jobsearch a day, which can sometimes be a challenge, particularly when there hasn't been much in the way of new job postings, and the Univeral Jobmatch is utterly useless, its hard to find an actual job on there sometimes!.

 

As 'cyberhead' alluded too, most shops wont even accept CVs anymore, they point you to their website.

 

I tried a nearby industrial estate today, the industrial estate only has a few business left on it now, most of the warehouses and small office blocks have been derelict for years, anyway had no luck. Going to try another nearby industrial estate on Thursday or Friday, pretty much in the same condition as the one I visited today though, but worth ago.

[Mr.P]

I'm going to give them a ring later on today and see what they have to offer, and also ask if I can attend at an office which is less hassle to get to, its at least a 2-and-a-half-hour journey from memory using public transport, despite how the town is only 15 miles way!

 

Do not ask, take ownership of the problem and tell them that you will attend at a location that is convenient for you. If they refuse, instruct them to book (and pay for) a taxi each way.

 

Assuming the 2½Hr time is each way, that falls well outside the 90 minute journey time the DWP would expect of you if it was for a job.

[Dom86]

it would seem that you have been sent on MWA after recently completing another work related activity (The WP), This is contrary to DWP guidelines.

MWA (MWA guidance 23.07.12.pdf ) section 18 says:

“Given the policy intent of MWA, the following claimants must not be considered for referral

to MWA:

Those taking part in or recently completed another employment measure

(contracted or non-contracted) aimed at helping them move closer to

the labour market”

This enough is grounds for refusal.

see also:

The DWP have confirmed that the WP is an employment-related measure:

“The recorded information we hold that best answers this question is Regulation 3(8) of the

Jobseeker’s Allowance (Schemes for Assisting Persons to Obtain Employment) Regulations

2013, which confirms the Work Programme is an employment-related measure. A link to the

Regulations is provided below:

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/a11-6101.pdf ”

 

So whats the time length, between completing an 'employment measure', and being avaiable once again for another employment measure?

[jasta11]

Here's another handy FOI response I found on the 'Whatdotheyknow' site, which includes the following statement from the DWP Central Office FOI Team;

'Advisers cannot mandate claimants to give them access to their Universal

Jobmatch account, nor can they force a claimant to print out screen prints of their UJ account.'

 

This is very relevant as JC advisors most definitely WILL ask you to provide print-outs of your UJ account if you've denied them access. In fact, they'll probably try and tell you it's mandatory in their usual fashion. Print it out and smile nicely when you show it to them. Document is here;

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/169272/response/411434/attach/3/FOI%203354.pdf

 

[Dom86]

Also it says under 'section 18' of "MWA guidance 23.07.12.pdf ";

 

"undertaking employment related study / training". I'm doing a part-time degree, and as far as I'm concerned its employment related study, one of the big reasons I started doing the degree was for employment.

[Dom86]

I thought "MWA guidance 23.07.12.pdf" was replaced with newer guidelines, I remeber looking at this, and then going to the DWP site and finding somethink newer, but 'DWP Central Freedom of Information Team' are of the opioin it seems that this is the latest.

[Dom86]

Here's another handy FOI response I found on the 'Whatdotheyknow' site, which includes the following statement from the DWP Central Office FOI Team;

 

'Advisers cannot mandate claimants to give them access to their Universal

Jobmatch account, nor can they force a claimant to print out screen prints of their UJ account.'

 

This is very relevant as JC advisors most definitely WILL ask you to provide print-outs of your UJ account if you've denied them access. In fact, they'll probably try and tell you it's mandatory in their usual fashion. Print it out and smile nicely when you show it to them. Document is here;

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/169272/response/411434/attach/3/FOI%203354.pdf

 

 

I was threated, my adviser said that she didn't want to have to 'Mandate' me to allow access to my UJ.