Jump to content


Problem with purchase from auction site


gth73bg
style="text-align: center;">  

Thread Locked

because no one has posted on it for the last 4047 days.

If you need to add something to this thread then

 

Please click the "Report " link

 

at the bottom of one of the posts.

 

If you want to post a new story then

Please

Start your own new thread

That way you will attract more attention to your story and get more visitors and more help 

 

Thanks

Recommended Posts

Hello,

For now I'd rather not mention the name of this site, I just want to ask what is your opinion on this story?

I bought the following products from this site, here's the product description:

"A Bowens Illumtran Flash Slide Copier, with Nixon film camera, this item is used and untested"

Product image has a resolution of 199x132, so you can only barely get an idea about the condition of this product. You can view picture here: www dot gthdirect dot com/flashcopier/DSC_0020.JPG

Here is their disclaimer:

"These goods being auctioned are second hand, unless stated otherwise. The ******** that listed the item and ******** Auctions claim no responsibility for the authenticity, commercial value or quality of any of the items sold through ******* Auctions. The working condition (unless stated otherwise) of these items are not determined and it is advised that all electrical items should be tested by a competent person prior to use."

When I received the product, it turned out that it does have a plug. So I began to think how you can say that something is not tested, since it cannot actually be able to be tested for the simple reason that there is no plug!

So, I filed a complaint and here's their response:

"I can see nothing wrong with this auction. The item is both described as untested both in the description and disclaimer. It cannot be clearer and for clarity that means the item HAS NOT been tested. The fact that the plug is missing is not relevent. The complaint is rejected and return and refund will not be offered."

I replied as follows:

"It is quite interesting logic. NOT TESTED is the opposite of TESTED, but to be tested, concerned electronic equipment must be ABLE to be tested, but this machine cannot be tested because of the simple reason that there is no plug. So to claim that something is not tested since it is NOT POSSIBLE to be tested is quite simply a cheating. Not to mention the other aspect of this case, that when the plug of some electronic equipment missing, in most cases this means that it has already been tested and does not work. So the fact that the plug is missing is VERY RELEVANT!"

Her is the response:

"The item is NOT TESTED by the ******* or by the ****** and as such you must deduce from that it will either work or there will be a chance it may not work! That is for you to decide and adjust your bid value accordingly. It is stated clearly twice on the auction that the item is untested or not tested. The plug may have been missing for any number of reasons and in anyway is again not relevent. You have not been decieved or mislead."

I also do not see where exactly in disclaimer says that item is NOT TESTED or untested, it says:"...The working condition (unless stated otherwise) of these items are not determined..."

Here's what I think, maybe I am wrong, but that's reason I am here for help.

I have no pretensions as to whether or not the machine is working, I have pretensions that an important fact about the state of the machine is not mentioned and I'm sure that this is intentional.

For me, they deliberately failed to mention a very important fact, by claiming that it is irrelevant. It is like to selling a car without to have a keys for this car. Just write NOT TESTED, you buy what you see. But "accidentally" forget to mention that the car has no keys, because it is irrelevant!

What do you think, is the fact that the plug is missing and this is not mentioned in the product description is relevant or not?

So any advice would be helpful to me.

Thank you in advance.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Auctioneers always remove plugs from 2nd hand electrical items. Regardless of the reason it is not trested, it was not tested, was not said to be working and it was up to you to decide whether to purchase or not, I really dont see that you have anything to complain about

If I have been of any help, please click on my star and let me know, thank you.

Link to post
Share on other sites

When I received the product, it turned out that it does have a plug.

Sorry I made ​​a mistake here, should be read: "When I received the product, it turned out that it does NOT have a plug."

Link to post
Share on other sites

Auctioneers always remove plugs from 2nd hand electrical items

This is not the first 2nd hand electrical items ordered from me from this and other auctions, all of them were with plugs, so somehow I can not agree with that statement.

Please be more clear.

Thank you.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Auctioneers always remove plugs from 2nd hand electrical items. Regardless of the reason it is not trested, it was not tested, was not said to be working and it was up to you to decide whether to purchase or not, I really dont see that you have anything to complain about

If I understand correctly assisted blonde, plug has nothing to do with the integrity of a product and the fact that it is missing, is not important. Even less important is for the ability of

product to be tested? So absence of something that is an integral part of a product, according to your words is not important. You can sell your laptop without batteries and chargers, not to mention that in your description, just say it has not been tested, and everything is ОК?

Link to post
Share on other sites

This is not the first 2nd hand electrical items ordered from me from this and other auctions, all of them were with plugs, so somehow I can not agree with that statement.

Please be more clear.

Thank you.

 

Perhaps that poster meant "auctioneers from bricks and mortar auction houses usually remove plugs and describe items as untested to avoid issues of liability".

 

However, returning to your original post : if the item was described as untested it is irrelevant if it was "untested and had no plug" or was "untested and arrived with a plug" : if it was "sold untested" then caveat emptor!

 

I take it it doesn't work and you feel aggrieved?

If so, I doubt you can claim you were misled or that it is "not as described".

Link to post
Share on other sites

If I understand correctly assisted blonde, plug has nothing to do with the integrity of a product and the fact that it is missing, is not important. Even less important is for the ability of

product to be tested? So absence of something that is an integral part of a product, according to your words is not important. You can sell your laptop without batteries and chargers, not to mention that in your description, just say it has not been tested, and everything is ОК?

 

Using your "laptop battery and charger" analogy, does the item have a non-standard plug?. If it has a standard plug its isn't reasonable to compare it with a (costly) laptop battery or charger.

 

Is your complaint it arriving without a plug?

Arriving without a plug and then not working?.

 

Either way if your complaint us that it was described as 'not tested' and your complaint is that it is not working : tough.

 

If your complaint is that it should have arrived with a plug : I'd say "here's a refund of the cost of a plug".

 

If your complaint is that it didn't arrive with a plug, and you fitted a plug, and then it wasn't working : "here's the cost of a plug ; other than that - not working? Tough"

Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, thank you for answers. I most likely got too highly developed sense of what is fair and what is not, and therefore I have a strange feeling that something is wrong, but it is entirely my problem. I do not think it is important that item has a standard plug or not. For me is not important if it work or not work or whether the removed component is expensive or cheap. For me is important, that an component of the product is removed and its not described in the product description. Аnd the removed component is exactly this, that actually allows you to test the unit easily, then described as untested. If you're a seller, your duty is to inform as detailed as possible for the condition of the goods you sell, everything else is fraud, especially if the picture is not particularly informative, not to mention that in this case the end the cable does not shown by the photo, intentionally or not. Anyway, apparently I'm wrong. I need to rethink my behavior.

Thank you!

Link to post
Share on other sites

I always got the impression that you should go to the place these goods are at and test it for yourself.

 

In fact all auction houses are strictly no returns. You do your own checks and you take the risk. That is what auction houses are about.

 

The problem in this day and age is ebay has come along and distorted what people think an auction is. The only thing they share in common is the bidding after that it's all ebay's terms which is not the way a real auction house works.

 

Sorry to say but this is a simple case of caveat emptor. (Buyer beware) And yes that goes for buying from pc plod too.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry yes std auction houses remove plugs from 2nd hand items, the online auction is pos different in that items come from the seller direct and theauction house are just a medium for putting people in touch with each other so not truly an auction house

If I have been of any help, please click on my star and let me know, thank you.

Link to post
Share on other sites

It was untested, they said that and you bid accordingly. If it was advertised as brand new in a box and fully guaranteed what price would you expect to pay? esentially you took a rick knowing of the description and you are now grumpy because it turns out to be what you bought.

Link to post
Share on other sites

It was untested, they said that and you bid accordingly. If it was advertised as brand new in a box and fully guaranteed what price would you expect to pay? esentially you took a rick knowing of the description and you are now grumpy because it turns out to be what you bought.

 

Ok, basically, I used this forum to get help, advice, or at least support. What I am not looking for, is the stupid opinions of people who only want to accumulate posts, In order to feel important.

I think that with my previous post I agreed with everything said here and finished this topic.

I again counting this as my fault, because from the beginning I had to tell the whole story.

So now I will explain in detail why I'm so irritated of this missing plug, with the hope that people like ericsbrother will refrain in the future to express their foolish and unnecessary comments in a forum like this.

I bought 8 different things from this same online auction, 6 of these things were problematic.

1. The first thing was printer cartridge, costing around 100 pounds. Described in the following way:

"Box opened but cartridge still in sealed bag". So I bid accordingly, but it turned out actually, that this sealed bag is not sealed at all, which of course change the price.

2. Sony DVD+R, Believed to be new - working condition unknown - not tested.

What bothered me in this case is the claim "Believed to be new", It was in working condition, but box was opened, all packages inside the box are also opened and ruptured and on the device itself has a scratches and other traces of use.

3. It was a gold ring, described correctly, just incidentally they had forgotten to mention that the ring is bent. And I am convinced that a ring should be circular in order to gets in your finger, or if for some reason is not, It should properly be described in the description. As I am pretty sure, that even if you sell something which is not new and not described as a new, and for some reason something violates its integrity, even if it just a power plug, It is necessary to be mentioned!

4. A ring again, here is the description:

"Yellow metal ring with single clear stone in yellow metal setting..."

I really cannot comment on this! Please look at the pictures of this yellow metal ring with single clear stone in yellow metal setting!

[ATTACH=CONFIG]41901[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]41902[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]41903[/ATTACH]

5. White metal watch on chain necklace. This case is very interesting, because they have tried to describe in detail the product and even applied three photos with reasonably good quality. But none of these pictures show the back of this white metal watch. Here's part of the description concerning this:

"The rear of the watch has a "flowery" design on it (not pictured)"

Yep, not pictured, because from the picture may become clear, this watch is not at all made from white metal, here is the photo:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]41904[/ATTACH]

Here are 5 cases and case about power plug, 6 cases of 8 purchases, made within a few days from the same auction.

So, now I hope you understand why I am so **** off about this missing plug.

And one more thing, personally to ericsbrother. I guess that the reason to defend above mentioned so-called sellers is that you yourself are a seller and you use the same methods to mislead people, so, I want to tell you one important detail which you obviously do not understand. Untested or if you prefer NOT TESTED mean, that you do not know whether a product is in working condition or not. This certainly does not mean that you do not know if any parts of the product are missing or not. And because I definitely do not want to go on to argue about whether the power plug is part of certain product or not, I intend to abandon this topic.

Thank you!

Link to post
Share on other sites

seriously you get what you pay for if you want to use auction sites to try and get a better/cheaper deal its a chance you take, sometimes its works out sometimes it dosent. if you want guarranted working items with full SOGA protection go to a shop because theres not a lot you can do with these sites. And to anyone beleived to be new is not the same as saying is new, working condition unknown and not tested rather to my min d gives the game away

If I have been of any help, please click on my star and let me know, thank you.

Link to post
Share on other sites

yellow metal ring with stone looks like a yellow metal ring to me, white metal could be any white metal dosnt have to be vrillient white what it means is it could be forign silver but they dont know as therte are no marks, , not tested means not tested not weather you know if an item is working or not, beleived to be new means nothing (I beleive I am fantastic looking) working condition unknown and not tested are self explanatory, really if you want to use these sites its a risk you take if you havent personally exhamined the items. People use these sites to try and get a cheap bargain and are not happy when they dont get it but if you want to buy somthing that is guaranteed and working and you have full soga protection go to a shop. And for you information I dont sell on auction sites although I have bought one or two items in the past.

I have only put this in case you are reading although you say you have abandoned the topic .

If I have been of any help, please click on my star and let me know, thank you.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well yes, I did not see the point in continuing to waste my time in this forum, but yesterday I got an email that I have reply to my treat, so I decided to see that if by chance I finally received some satisfactory, clever answer. Unfortunately, that was not the case. So I began to wonder if I am at the right place or not? Because in this so-called "The consumer action group" forum, where instead of, quote: "Free support and advice to help you with your consumer problems", I got free lecture from bunch of people on the topic: "What they thought it was, been or should have been yesterdays, today's and tomorrows auctions" or someone trying to analyze my mental state after an unfortunate purchase!

So I decided to waste a little more time here, and by your example to analyze your answers or how they contributed to the good of this forum or helped me personally.

 

Auctioneers always remove plugs from 2nd hand electrical items. Regardless of the reason it is not trested, it was not tested, was not said to be working and it was up to you to decide whether to purchase or not, I really dont see that you have anything to complain about

 

Dear assisted blonde, would be better if before you write anything, to read carefully what is written. My treat is in "Online Stores" subcategory, nothing to do with auction houses. I see that later you realized your mistake, but that does not justify your hasty post. And also, I've never mentioned whether this machine works or not. I see that you cannot understand my point of view. I'm not complaining that the machine does not work, I'm not even test it yet, I want to say that I purchased a product and despite being a second-hand, is not in its original appearance, something missing from it regardless what is and this is not described. It's that simple!

 

Perhaps that poster meant "auctioneers from bricks and mortar auction houses usually remove plugs and describe items as untested to avoid issues of liability". However, returning to your original post : if the item was described as untested it is irrelevant if it was "untested and had no plug" or was "untested and arrived with a plug" : if it was "sold untested" then caveat emptor!

I take it it doesn't work and you feel aggrieved?

If so, I doubt you can claim you were misled or that it is "not as described".

 

So, apart from unnecessary guesses how I feel and for what reason I feel so after this purchase, this is perhaps the most useful post here. As I said above, I do not know if the machine is working or not and this is not the reason for this treat. So, if the post looked as "I doubt you can claim you were misled or that it is not as described", without other unnecessary assumptions, will works great, just as someone would expect from this forum.

 

Using your "laptop battery and charger" analogy, does the item have a non-standard plug?. If it has a standard plug its isn't reasonable to compare it with a (costly) laptop battery or charger.

 

Is your complaint it arriving without a plug?

Arriving without a plug and then not working?.

 

Either way if your complaint us that it was described as 'not tested' and your complaint is that it is not working : tough.

 

If your complaint is that it should have arrived with a plug : I'd say "here's a refund of the cost of a plug".

 

If your complaint is that it didn't arrive with a plug, and you fitted a plug, and then it wasn't working : "here's the cost of a plug ; other than that - not working? Tough"

 

It is quite possible that I fail to find out where it is said that power plug is no longer considered part of a piece of electrical equipment. Or if this part, in this case this power plug, is cheaper than, let's say laptop battery or charger, there is no need at all to mention the absence of this part in description of selling product. Or that the word "untested" justify any possible missing parts of the given product.

So dear BazzaS, my complaint is that the absence of this part is not mentioned in the product description, nothing else.

 

I always got the impression that you should go to the place these goods are at and test it for yourself.

 

In fact all auction houses are strictly no returns. You do your own checks and you take the risk. That is what auction houses are about.

 

The problem in this day and age is ebay has come along and distorted what people think an auction is. The only thing they share in common is the bidding after that it's all ebay's terms which is not the way a real auction house works.

 

Sorry to say but this is a simple case of caveat emptor. (Buyer beware) And yes that goes for buying from pc plod too.

 

Dear ashmk, unfortunately you obviously missing a very important details. First, like assisted blonde, you miss the detail that my treat is in "Online Stores" subcategory, nothing to do with auction houses, so this is online or distance selling, I guess you know what I mean.

Second, unfortunately, for one reason or another, not everyone can "... go to the place these goods are at and test it for yourself."

And third, you do not know what I think an auction is or how eBay has influenced my idea about what an auction is, so this comment is more than unnecessary, it's your opinion, and in this case, neither helps nor needed.

 

It was untested, they said that and you bid accordingly. If it was advertised as brand new in a box and fully guaranteed what price would you expect to pay? esentially you took a rick knowing of the description and you are now grumpy because it turns out to be what you bought.

 

Another professor of psychology who is trying to determine how I feel. And where I said anything about the price I expected to pay? Would be good if you refrain from writing comments after you smoked weed.

 

And last, assisted blonde again,

 

seriously you get what you pay for if you want to use auction sites to try and get a better/cheaper deal its a chance you take, sometimes its works out sometimes it dosent. if you want guarranted working items with full SOGA protection go to a shop because theres not a lot you can do with these sites. And to anyone beleived to be new is not the same as saying is new, working condition unknown and not tested rather to my min d gives the game away

 

yellow metal ring with stone looks like a yellow metal ring to me, white metal could be any white metal dosnt have to be vrillient white what it means is it could be forign silver but they dont know as therte are no marks, , not tested means not tested not weather you know if an item is working or not, beleived to be new means nothing (I beleive I am fantastic looking) working condition unknown and not tested are self explanatory, really if you want to use these sites its a risk you take if you havent personally exhamined the items. People use these sites to try and get a cheap bargain and are not happy when they dont get it but if you want to buy somthing that is guaranteed and working and you have full soga protection go to a shop. And for you information I dont sell on auction sites although I have bought one or two items in the past.

I have only put this in case you are reading although you say you have abandoned the topic .

 

I know that this It is not right, but will use capital letters here,for people who are sand blind, to make sure that they'll understand. I do not use it to express anything bad, just for better visibility.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT WHAT I GOT, THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE COST AND THIS IS NOT AT ALL ABOUT HOW I FEEL.

The point is that something is missing, even if it is a simple plug, and that is not described. The word UNTESTED in no way justifies this absence.

And even after I tried to explain in detail the entire case and added photos, sorry to say this, but you continue to being blind.

So especially for you, I put pictures with high definition details, these are pictures made ​​by me:

 

www dot gthdirect dot com/ring/DSC_0272.jpg

www dot gthdirect dot com/ring/DSC_0274.jpg

www dot gthdirect dot com/ring/DSC_0275.jpg

www dot gthdirect dot com/watch/DSC_0277.jpg

 

And here is the original picture of the ring from the auction:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]41969[/ATTACH]

 

Please look at the pictures after replace word DOT to real dot (.) , because I have no right to upload links here.

Now tell me again that this yellow metal ring is yellow or that the white stone sits in yellow metal setting.

It's clearly seen, that this is not a yellow metal but is metal coated with yellow.

Same is with clock, there are three different photos in the original description representing the clock from different angles, but there is no picture of the back of the clock, just this description: "The rear of the watch has a "flowery" design on it (not pictured)"

Now when the image is large, you may see how worn is this flowery design and under that white coat shines true color of the metal.

Provided that it is clearly visible that something is made of different-colored metal, but in no case of yellow or white metal, but you anyway claim the opposite and as in the second case, even deliberately not showing that picture, for me it's attempted fraud.

And also dear assisted blonde, I know very well the difference between different possibilities and ways of shopping. When I'm shopping from there, I took the necessary risk, but this does not mean that I agree to be misled in this way. And also, it does not matter whether you sell on auction sites or not, I do not know why you say that. Whether you are honest trader or not, that's what matters.

Аnd such problems like this described here by me, no matter how insignificant they look, they are the ones that distinguish the honest trader from fraudster.

 

So even though I was not helped and not met any understanding here, I still learned some new things.

I learned that power plug is no longer considered part of a piece of electrical equipment.

I learned that the word "untested", when used in the description, justify any possible missing parts of the given product.

I learned that if the price of the missing part is less than a certain amount, you do not have to mention it in the description of the product sold by you.

I learned that there is no difference between the yellow metal or coated with something yellow metal.

Аnd last but not least, I really was wondering what are these feelings that I feel when I was so ripped off, but thanks to the invaluable skills of BazzaS and ericsbrother, I already know how I feel, grumpy and aggrieved.

 

So many useful things, thank you all for this!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Our pleasure !!!!! and thank you for pointing out my failing eyesight i must make an opticians appointment, I am sure that someone somewhere will give you the understanding you didnt get here, as for attempted fraud, caveat emptor , not showing somthing is far different from attempted fraud, take up your complaint with the auction and see what they say, you started off by asking for opinions and that is what you got, you dont have to like them but there is no need to be rude.

If I have been of any help, please click on my star and let me know, thank you.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Our pleasure !!!!! and thank you for pointing out my failing eyesight i must make an opticians appointment, I am sure that someone somewhere will give you the understanding you didnt get here, as for attempted fraud, caveat emptor , not showing somthing is far different from attempted fraud, take up your complaint with the auction and see what they say, you started off by asking for opinions and that is what you got, you dont have to like them but there is no need to be rude.

 

 

Pretty much what I expected, but I never thought, that I would get another stupid comment!

Do you see what happens here?

After my post about a mile long trying to explain everything in detail, I received THIS answer!?

Nothing about, "Yes, I saw those pictures, you're right!" or "Yes, I saw these pictures but I think you're wrong!" or this Act, this Section, this Amendment, bla-bla-bla or even some offense!?

 

NOTHING!

 

Only very strange:

 

" I am sure that someone somewhere will give you the understanding you didnt get here".

 

So my concerns have proved true, I'm not in the right place. It is a very good advertisement for this forum, made by a user with nearly 1,800 posts!

 

"...thank you for pointing out my failing eyesight i must make an opticians appointment"

I'm sorry but I do not think that an optician or any other physician will give you what you need.

 

"...not showing somthing is far different from attempted fraud"

 

I do not know what to say, but I think no need to comment, because any one at least with a little brain in his head, can think of dozens of scenarios, when NOT SHOWING SOMETING is definitely FRAUD, especially if you have to comply with certain rules!

 

"...you started off by asking for opinions and that is what you got"

Yes, this is true, only that I naively thought I'd get the opinion of knowledgeable people, not YOUR opinion! My bad!

 

"...you don't have to like them but there is no need to be rude"

 

I do not see that I have wrote something more rude than others have posted about me.

But for your information, there is a big difference from being rude or being straightforward!

 

And last but not least I want to say that, all you are like children who learn their first word: "caveat emptor", and use it anywhere without understanding its meaning and you think you can fool someone?

 

What if I say "caveat venditor"?

 

Following is a quote from online source:

 

"...Although no longer applied in consumer law, the principle of caveat emptor is generally held to apply to transactions between businesses unless it can be shown that the seller had a clear information advantage over the buyer that could not have been removed by carrying out reasonable due diligence..."

 

Or with other simple words, known to the greater part of the audience, this means "Sold As is".

But I just do not see how this applies to my case?

So if you are the elite in this forum... I have nothing more to say!!!

 

P.S.

 

For your information, I am already approved for "Return and Refund", for all the above mentioned things, except in the case of "THE PLUG". If you are not ashamed to ask for, I will provide all the evidence. Good luck so-called "The consumer action group" forum!

Link to post
Share on other sites

It would appear to me that you had made up your mind the answers that you required before posting. Sadly you will not always receive the responses that you think you are entitled to !

 

You are now unhappy that you have not received responses backing up your own thoughts and have chosen to attack those who have bothered to take the time to respond to your questions.

 

From what I can see, you purchased an item from an online site that advertised the listing as untested. You then discover there is no plug. Had the item been described as having no plug, would you have purchased it !

 

It would appear you have now resolved your situation having obtained permission to return the item for refund.

 

Having noticed that further attacks on other members occurred whilst I was posting - I am now closing this thread.

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

BCOBS

1: How can BCOBS protect you from your Banks unfair treatment

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

Link to post
Share on other sites

style="text-align: center;">  

Thread Locked

because no one has posted on it for the last 4047 days.

If you need to add something to this thread then

 

Please click the "Report " link

 

at the bottom of one of the posts.

 

If you want to post a new story then

Please

Start your own new thread

That way you will attract more attention to your story and get more visitors and more help 

 

Thanks

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    • No registered users viewing this page.

  • Have we helped you ...?


×
×
  • Create New...