Charge Notice - help with understanding implications needed

[baconrasher]

My (stupid) son has received a Charge Notice from the local council (Bath & NE Somerset) for an unpaid PCN. From talking to the council it appears that there is at least one other Charge Notice unanswered, and a string of PCNs outstanding!

 

I think I understand what happens next (Debt Recovery Order, bailiffs, etc).

 

The car is actually owned by my wife (inherited from her father), but my son is the registered keeper and has use of the vehicle provided he pays all the costs (insurance, tax, servicing etc.). I think my son thinks he is not responsible for the debt. My son works for a financial services company and they are very fussy indeed about CCJ's.

 

Can somebody confirm that a debt recovery order arising from a PCN is the 'same as' a CCJ?

 

How long has a he got to pay the debt between the debt recovery order being issued and bailiffs turning up?

 

I have never let a PCN get even remotely close to this stage, so I am not sure what correspondence he will have received. I read somewhere on the forums about a 'Notice to Owner' - I suspect this is why he thinks he is not responsible, as he is not the owner. Can somebody confirm that liability is on the keeper, not the owner?

 

Many thanks

 

Bacon

[green_and_mean]

http://www.patas.gov.uk/tmaadjudicators/tmaparkingenforcement.htm

[baconrasher]

Thanks for that.

 

Is the fact that my son is not the owner of the vehicle in any way the basis for an appeal?

[Jamberson]

Yes, if he can be bothered! He can contest liability for all those PCNs which have not progressed beyond the Notice to Owner stage - by providing the details of the actual owner who will then have to pay them. If he doesn't do that, then he's the one in the frame (rightly so, it seems). He has to learn to deal with his affairs better.

 

Incidentally, in your initial post you mention things like a "charge notice". It is rather impostant to cite the correct names for the documents, as it matters what stage they are at. If you could be precise, it will help with advice. The process is:

 

1. PCN (ie parking ticket)

2. Notice to Owner (which can be contested on the basis of non-ownership)

3. Charge Caertificate (right of appeal forfeited by now)

4. Order for Recovery

5. Bailiffs

[baconrasher]

Yes, if he can be bothered! He can contest liability for all those PCNs which have not progressed beyond the Notice to Owner stage - by providing the details of the actual owner who will then have to pay them. If he doesn't do that, then he's the one in the frame (rightly so, it seems). He has to learn to deal with his affairs better.

 

Incidentally, in your initial post you mention things like a "charge notice". It is rather impostant to cite the correct names for the documents, as it matters what stage they are at. If you could be precise, it will help with advice. The process is:

 

1. PCN (ie parking ticket)

2. Notice to Owner (which can be contested on the basis of non-ownership)

3. Charge Caertificate (right of appeal forfeited by now)

4. Order for Recovery

5. Bailiffs

 

Duh - I should have said Charge Certificate.

 

Sounds like this will just transfer the problem to Mrs Rasher, which will not be popular!

 

Many thanks for your input.

[crem]

I am some what confused as to why your son is so stubornly holding to the fact that he is not the "owner" as if he thinks the PCNs will go away based on this fact alone. They won't.

 

Even if he were to convince them of this point then all that does is transfer the debt to his mother. If my daughter merrily racked up PCNs and felt she could do so with total impunity coz "her mother owns the car" I can asure you the council would be the least of my daughter's problems when I found out!!!!

[Jamberson]

If they are at Charge Certificate stage he is too late to transfer liability. He may get lucky (!) and find the council co-operative, but as Crem says, the PCNs aren't going away.

[baconrasher]

I am some what confused as to why your son is so stubornly holding to the fact that he is not the "owner" as if he thinks the PCNs will go away based on this fact alone. They won't.

 

Even if he were to convince them of this point then all that does is transfer the debt to his mother. If my daughter merrily racked up PCNs and felt she could do so with total impunity coz "her mother owns the car" I can asure you the council would be the least of my daughter's problems when I found out!!!!

 

Unfortunately, like a lot of kids of his generation, he thinks the rules don't apply to him. I had hoped that at 22 he would have grown out of it, but there is no sign of that happening yet.

 

On the positive side, I explained the information provided by this forum to Mrs Rasher. She spoke with the offending offspring today and did a certain amount of horoscope reading. I doubt it will do any good for his attitude, but it made the missus feel happier:wink:

[baconrasher]

If they are at Charge Certificate stage he is too late to transfer liability. He may get lucky (!) and find the council co-operative, but as Crem says, the PCNs aren't going away.

 

I think that we are going to sit back and see what happens. I rather think that the total number of PCNs (all ignored) is rapidly topping out at over £1K. Looks like he is going to have to learn the hard way

[crem]

Be careful he doesn't let this £1K of PCNs get to bailiff stage. By then, what was originally around £1,000 at face value will look more like £10,000 very very quickly!!!

[sgtbush]

im going to assume your son lives at a different address to you, ultimatly the responsibility lies with the owner, not the reg keeper, however normally these two people are the same and your going to have to prove this.

im suspecting the notices have been to him and he has just ignored it, weather you can have the clock rolled back or not, i dont know, but these tickets aint going to go away, i would imagine in the future you will get a phone call from him saying " they have clamped my car" or they have removed my car or the like.

What happens if I don't pay a parking ticket

 

If you are contacted in relation to an outstanding Penalty Charge Notice, it is suggested that you contact the Bailiff in order to arrange payment, so that further charges are avoided.

If you receive a letter or visit from a bailiff who is trying to recover a debt from a previous tenant of the property, you are advised to speak to the Bailiff as soon as possible to inform them.

If you are unaware of having an outstanding penalty charge notice, you can contact Parking Services who can check when and where the ticket was issued. If you wish to contest the ticket at this stage, you will have to complete a witness statement.

Once a warrant of execution has been passed to the bailiffs for recovery, it is no longer possible to appeal directly to the Council. However, if you did not receive the Notice to Owner or if you have challenged the Penalty Charge Notice in writing previously and have not received a response, you should contact the Traffic Enforcement Centre on 08457 045 007 in order to complete a witness statement.

About the rules:

 

The legislation which governs the actions of the Bailiffs is The Enforcement of Road Traffic Debts 1993 - Stautory Instrument nos. 2072 and 2073 (external site).

A Bailiff is granted a Certificate allowing him/her to enforce a Warrant of Execution. This is issued by the courts in accordance with the Distress for Rent Rules 1988 - Stautory Instrument no. 2050 (external site).

Once a Bailiff has already obtained entry to your property, they are able to enter again when the debtor is not at home.

What the Bailiff can remove

 

The Bailiff will make a list of items and their estimated value. The value is judged on the estimated recoverable price the item will receive at auction. Bailiffs are legally bound to get the highest possible price for the items at auction. The Bailiff has the legal power to seize goods after estimating their value. If the goods seized do not cover the outstanding charges at auction, the Bailiff can return to collect the outstanding amount.

Bailiffs cannot remove items that belong to someone other than the debtor. Bailiffs can, however, remove items that are jointly owned by the debtor and someone else, even if the other owner is not present. You must tell the Bailiff if they attempt to remove anything that doe not belong to the debtor. The bailiff may ask you to produce evidence to show that you are not the owner of the property.

[green_and_mean]

im going to assume your son lives at a different address to you, ultimatly the responsibility lies with the owner, not the reg keeper, however normally these two people are the same and your going to have to prove this.

 

Thats actually incorrect, the registered keeper is liable unless THEY can prove they are not the owner, the owner cannot hijack the process to claim responsibility. If the registered keeper does not make a declaration to the NTO stating they are not the owner they are accepting liability.

[Jamberson]

There is a further point though - the debt rests with the RK (unless contested) but the bailiff may not remove somone else's property to settle it. Therefore some robust evidence that he is not the car owner should be enough to thwart that course of action. However it will not make the debt go away, if the debtor is in posession of property. They will seek to levy and may strip him of all his disposable assets. The car might well be saved though.

[crem]

Bottom line is these PCNs need paying by someone. And the quicker the better (cheaper!)