DWP lost case on work programme legality but are appealing

[pastanutty]

Isn't forced unpaid work slavery..?

[flowerchild]

How are they doing this? (for JSA, I mean)

 

Sanctions, of course!

[Nystagmite]

But you're not forced to claim JSA or any other benefit.

[flowerchild]

No, no-one is forced to do anything (well, not at gun point if that's what you mean!) However, people are often 'forced' into doing things due to circumstances, like if you have no work or money, you are 'forced' into claiming benefits, otherwise what would you do? beg? steal?

 

All this about people being responsible etc... at the end of the day we ordinary people are not in charge of strategy and planning. That's what governments are for, otherwise what would be the point of having all those guys in Westminster? Voters can only vote for those who are up for grabs and in reality and when all the bull is set aside, there's often very little different between one and the other.

 

Many people have been responsible all their lives, working, paying bills and debts, etc. only to have the rug pulled under their feet by the credit crunch caused by the greed so-and-so of Wall St in the first place and the ripple effect it's been having ever since! Look at these and other forums and see how many times you find something like "...till I lost my job in 2008/09/10...", "...our business collapsed 3 years ago..." etc. See a pattern emerging? There are others who have been affected by unrelated circumstances such as ill health or disability as well so no, it's no always 'up to the people' to decide!

[antone]

But you're not forced to claim JSA or any other benefit.

 

And when you jump out of that plane at 4000 feet, you're not forced to open your parachute.

[flumps1976]

Sector Based Work Acadamies are one of the new hair brained schemes which have been designed to help graduates.

It is supposed to help them get some work experience, a sense of team working and developing a routine of getting to work on time and for however many hours per day, I think it's similar to the work experience (which as recently been expanded to include over 25's now :o ) and there is a maximum number of 30 hours per week.

The scheme is a voluntary entry scheme but if the client accepts to under go the scheme it becomes mandatory.

Any travel expenses are met from the Get Britain Working pot of money (which miracuosly appeared a couple of months ago!) when other pots have been removed and goal posts moved to make it far more difficult to obtain any help.

Also as it is unlikely that she has worked in her chosen field she would not be able to choose to only seek work in her chosen field but should be looking to apply for employment in any field that she is capable of working in and as such the argument could be that she was capable of working in the retail sector so the placement was not what she wanted but of sorts it was suitable.

 

The only thing that really grates on me is that she didn't like her placement and thought that she should have been offered her dream job as a placement, does anyone think I'm acheiving my dream job at the JCP?

I still don't know what I want to do when I grow up.

[sillygirl1]

I have 30 years plus solid work experience, have been unemployed since February when redundancy came courtesy of government cuts in the public sector, I've been tested at 120wpm audio typing and 65wpm copy typing, have excellent medical secretarial qualifications but because I don't have a degree and am the wrong side of 50 I am now deemed 'on the scrap heap'.

 

If there is somebody out there who has a job for me I will do it, I can't even get a job in a coffee bar now as I don't have the certificate to prove I know how to keep the place clean.

 

I thin the whole 'job placement' thing is to give the people who don't have ANY work experience an idea of the 'real world' where you have to get up at 6am, travel for an hour or so squashed like a sardine, accept the office 'morality' if you want to have a quiet life and avoid the petty HR people. Then after all that you get taxed heavily and have to pay your fares.

 

I saw that young girl and she said she was actually doing work experience in a museum so they should have left her alone and gone for somebody else who didn't have any motivation to do anything at all.

 

Just to add I did vote but not for either party of the government now in power.....

[osdset]

Up until 2008 I had been in gainful employment for 35 years as a carpenter, I increasingly found it difficult toward the end to keep up with the workload that I was given I put it down to getting older. I was self employed for the majority of that 35 years I paid my taxes and my NI stamps no holiday pay or sick pay but hey thats the drawback of being self employed.

So I go and sign on, I figure that perhaps I've earned the right, I get some work here, some work there, sign off sign back on, then the opportunities start getting few and far between so I end up signing on for all of 2010 and six months of 2011 just prior to being diagnosed with COPD and having to claim ESA six months ago (apparently I have had it for years, that explains why I was struggling at work) I was about to be placed on the workfare scheme the 'advisor' took great pleasure in informing me that I would be working for nothing for a month this would be non negotiable, benefit sanctions would apply for a refusal, obviously I fell into the category of the feckless and workshy, a worthless individual that had done nothing to improve his lot and was scrounging off the state.

 

The fact is that the DWP are using these schemes to massage the books, in reality it has nothing to do with raising anyones self esteem, or instilling a work ethic. If we had a society where real jobs with sensible pay were plentiful I would endorse such measures, all these schemes and wheezes do is increase the profit margin of the likes of Poundland and subvert the employment rights of their existing employees (do what your told or be replaced by slave labour).

 

The government shows a singular unwillingness to sanction the morons who got us into this financial nightmare so they go for the soft targets the sick and unemployed, I agree that the young lady in question needs a few lessons in the reality of life, but a period of forced labour is not the way to do it.

Edited December 8, 2011 by osdset

[Dilizjo]

I think it is high time that someone has found the guts to take the government to court over their benefits strategies, but do wonder whether this is the right case to be doing it. How is it being funded? I don't think you would be able to get LA for this, I may be wrong and sure that someone will correct:)

 

 

I also think that if the companies that are in receipt of this cheap labour were made to pay the claimant the shortfall between the minimum wage and the JSA to them it would be more of an incentive for them to try and keep the employment having that extra money in their pocket and still giving the company cheap labour. To me this seems like decent moral common sense.

[MaxxPower]

Perhaps she'd be happier assisting in getting weekly bin collections returned without an increase in Council Tax?

 

 

Isn't forced unpaid work slavery..?

It is, but as has been said, this isn't unpaid work. She's getting paid.

[greendollar]

Explains why Poundlands profits were up 80% this year , shame they couldn't offer the poor girl at least the NMW out of the 23 million they made.

[DigitalProduct]

Perhaps she'd be happier assisting in getting weekly bin collections returned without an increase in Council Tax?

It is, but as has been said, this isn't unpaid work. She's getting paid.

 

JSA isn't a wage.

 

It's sad that some people here support coerced labour but on the bright side they'll have a greater chance of being mugged or burgled when people are forced to get their basic necessities through other means.

[HannsG]

Another story here about a woman who had to do unpaid work even though she had just paid to go on a college course.

 

http://www.redpepper.org.uk/all-work-and-no-pay/

 

Sounds like the government have got a nice deal worked out with the supermarkets to help them out if they are targeting people already doing voluntary work / college courses, etc.

[Mrs E Blackadder]

Is this student really unable to see the skills she can learn from her current job? It may not be what she wants to do now, but I know bosses who are impressed with people who have made the effort to do jobs like shelf stacking in the absence of anything else being available, and are more inclined to employ them because they have shown that they are prepared to work hard and can use their initiative.

 

Obviously the student can't see that showing you can actually get to work on time and do a job are important. What about the skills of learning to work with others, or learning how to deal with people. Are these not important? Perhaps she wants to sit in a room by herself all day, doing only what she chooses to do, when she chooses to do it. I don't know, I'm not her, but my impression is that she thinks she has a right to what she wants.

 

I have done several jobs in my life, some fantastic but others not so. The one thing I can say though is that good or bad, I have learned something good from each job I have done and used the experience to take me onto something else. Maybe you can only see this with life experience, inwhich case I would say that our student has a little way to go yet!

[biggeorge]

OMG I can't believe all the bias comments on this forum over this crazy scheme the government have come up with.

From reading the various threads I gather most people who made bias comments have been working and most likely never signed on in their life.

 

Most of these schemes are suppose to help the individual get back into a routine of getting up and ready for work but how can someone be motivated

to go to work at Poundland or Asda or where ever else to do a full time shift that someone doing the same job is been paid 4 x more than you.

Its plain and simple slavery and I bet the large companies are loving this government scheme, Free labour lets have some more profit.

 

If these companies have places that need filling then they should be paying at least NMW and not taking advantage of the unemployed, Calling it training is an insult.

 

I am sure all of you who have worked for a long time, never claimed any benefits would NOT work 30 hours per work at £2 per hour which is what these schemes are

doing, work for your JSA or Sanction on your benefit.

 

Watch the coming months, Crime will rise as people who have been sanctioned will turn to other means to survive, By survive I mean where is the next £5

coming from for bread and milk for the family.

 

I sincerely hope this young lady wins her case and opens up loads of questions on these so called government schemes.

While I admit she can't just choose where to work or just wait for her dream job, she should not be forced to work for her entitlement while unemployed.

If she was getting paid a proper wage from the company in question I am sure she would not be moaning and there would be no mention of slavery.

 

George

[osdset]

Is this student really unable to see the skills she can learn from her current job? It may not be what she wants to do now, but I know bosses who are impressed with people who have made the effort to do jobs like shelf stacking in the absence of anything else being available, and are more inclined to employ them because they have shown that they are prepared to work hard and can use their initiative.

 

Obviously the student can't see that showing you can actually get to work on time and do a job are important. What about the skills of learning to work with others, or learning how to deal with people. Are these not important? Perhaps she wants to sit in a room by herself all day, doing only what she chooses to do, when she chooses to do it. I don't know, I'm not her, but my impression is that she thinks she has a right to what she wants.

 

I have done several jobs in my life, some fantastic but others not so. The one thing I can say though is that good or bad, I have learned something good from each job I have done and used the experience to take me onto something else. Maybe you can only see this with life experience, inwhich case I would say that our student has a little way to go yet!

 

You have made some valid points in your post but...............Now for a reality check, very very few if any jobseekers have been offered employment after attending one of these 'placements'.

One has to take on board that the companies involved are given a monetary subsidy for accepting free labour that's a double win by any standards, they are only obliged to provide fares where appropriate, some try to get out of even paying that, food and drink during meal breaks are funded by the claimant, they would not usually be allowed to use any subsidised canteen faciltiy as these are for staff only.

Managers and supervisors are expected to monitor the performance of those on placement, anyone not meeting the companies requirements in terms of workload, punctuality, and general attitude can be referred back to the DWP for sanction, this is wide open for abuse.

 

Whilst the corporate heads of these companies welcome the prospect of droves of free labour their supervisory staff do not as it leads to unrest amongst the workforce, rumors spread that these people are there to take jobs, and lower wages, why should time be spent training someone to do a task when that person will only be there for four weeks?

 

So I cannot blame anyone for not wanting to find themselves in a situation whereby they will be expected to do manual labour for 30 days unpaid, have to possibly fight to get fares repaid, have to pay out extra in terms of food and drink, and be at the butt end of abuse from management and staff, and the only monetary income is what BY LAW the government says is the minimum one needs to live on.

 

This is slave labour as defined by article 4 of The Universal Declaration of Human Rights which states, No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

Edited December 9, 2011 by osdset

[Surfer01]

Please note that it was the Labour government that introduced these measures, but it is the Conservatives that are enforcing them. Work placement used to be shadowing someone but where does work placement help someone that has been employed for several years. At that point it becomes slavery!

[Nystagmite]

From reading the various threads I gather most people who made bias comments have been working and most likely never signed on in their life.

 

I'm one of them and do sign on.

[greendollar]

Shocking that a firm(tesco) that posted profits of over 3 billion has access to free labour , maybe if small businesses or charities were benefiting then these work programmes would be more acceptable .

[Mrs E Blackadder]

In my day they called it the YTS (Youth Training Scheme). You did a placement with, as I recall, a very small monetary reward. The same arguments against that were given as are being given here and not many people claimed to be offered a job after a YTS placement. Nothing changes (except the name).

[osdset]

All these government schemes are akin to emptying the Atlantic with a thimble, they are not going to, and are not intended to alleviate the plight of the unemployed, they do however give Daily Mail readers something to be all gung ho about and after all votes count don't they?

 

We are returning to Victorian values in a big way but without the philanthropists to help out the 'deserving poor' Cameron's Big Society will take care of them, and he has found a novel way to fund the Big Society and that's to appropriate all funds left in dormant bank and building society accounts so If Aunty May has a little nest egg in the bank that she has been holding onto for 20 years you had better get her to withdraw it sharpish (if it's still there).

 

Look at the threads on this forum about the (edit) treatment of people claiming ESA and DLA Cameron's answer to the sick is to (edit) off and die preferably quietly, we are witnessing the dismantling of the welfare state and the NHS. The erosion of personal freedom and democracy, and the creation of an army of cheap and free labour. The divide between those that have and those that have not is increasing exponentially.

 

Take away a persons dignity and ability to fend for themselves and you create anarchy, the recent riots are to a degree proof of this, and I can only see the situation getting worse, I for one am frankly ashamed to be British, this country no longer represents the values that I was brought up to respect.

Edited December 9, 2011 by ErikaPNP
please refer to the forum rules

[Nystagmite]

Look at the threads on this forum about the criminal treatment of people claiming ESA and DLA Cameron's answer to the sick is to f**k off and die preferably quietly,

 

It seems odd that these changes only came in / will do since his son died...

[osdset]

It seems odd that these changes only came in / will do since his son died...

Exactly and he had the audacity to claim DLA on behalf of his son, just because you can claim a benefit does not mean that you should, are we supposed to believe he needed the cash? He should be branded a benefit scrounger, double standards and hypocrisy is just what I would expect from this smarmy lying (edit).

Edited December 9, 2011 by ErikaPNP
Please do not bypass the swear filter

[Nystagmite]

But DLA isn't means tested.

[Surfer01]

Exactly and he had the audacity to claim DLA on behalf of his son, just because you can claim a benefit does not mean that you should, are we supposed to believe he needed the cash? He should be branded a benefit scrounger, double standards and hypocrisy is just what I would expect from this smarmy lying (edit).

As stated previously, the Labour government and not the Conservative introduced this rule so we cannot blame the current government no matter who you support.