facing dismissal due to CRB checks

[amy247]

my employer over the past 4 years has carried out two enhanced CRB checks on me and all has been fine. My employer has never had a complaint about me and I have been an outstanding employee. Recently after a meeting with an external agency they have been made aware I had two allegations of assult on my CRB and these go back 4 plus years. Both cases were dropped and not proven. They were false allegations against me. My employer was never concerned before and had the information but now that some external agency i.e police or social services have raised it with them they are pursuing it and I am facing a dismissal hearing. I stated to my employer why was this not mentioned when they intially did the CRB 4 years ago. The answer was now the external agency has made us aware we must act. Can someone advise me if they dismiss me do I have a case of unfair dismissal or how should I argue my case when I am at the hearing? any help is appreciated.

[fletch70]

What you don't say is what your job is. O think that is pretty important. But i would also have to ask why they did not act before if they were on your crb and what makes it different now.

Have you had an investigation meeting.

[stu007]

Hi

 

What I would think about requesting from the Employers is.

 

1. What was the Enhanced CRB Policy and Procedure - 4years ago and you require a copy.

2. What is the Enhanced CRB Policy and Procedure - Latest Version and you require a copy.

 

Now what does your Contract of Employment state about Enhanced CRB Checks?

[amy247]

therese not alot on contract of employment on crb bit i believe it states you must pass crb checks, i would need to check it properly. i visit lots of peoples homes in my job doing surveyes and maybe my employer is getting worried since this other agency or someone has raised concerns. i have never given them any reason to be concerned. I dont believe the crb policy has changed over the years. I just feel someone important has raised it and now they feel they must do something. i havnt had any meetings yet to discuss the matter, they are to be arranged.

[BazzaS]

therese not alot on contract of employment on crb bit i believe it states you must pass crb checks, i would need to check it properly. i visit lots of peoples homes in my job doing surveyes and maybe my employer is getting worried since this other agency or someone has raised concerns. i have never given them any reason to be concerned. I dont believe the crb policy has changed over the years. I just feel someone important has raised it and now they feel they must do something. i havnt had any meetings yet to discuss the matter, they are to be arranged.

 

There is no "pass" or "fail" of a CRB, just what information is provided.

 

If the allegations were false, then they will not be recorded as a conviction or caution, but under "other information at Chief Officer's discretion".

 

You should advise your employer that the allegations were false, and that you intend to appeal the information featuring on your CRB.

 

"Information at the Chief Officer's discretion" policy changed in Sept 2012.

 

Subjects can now challenge the presentation of such information if it isn't relevant.

From : http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/agencies-public-bodies/dbs/corporate-publications/disclosure-and-barring-changes/leaflet-england-wales?view=Binary

 

6. Police information held locally – more rigorous relevancy test and new right of review

Currently, the police provide information held locally on enhanced CRB certificates when they consider it to be relevant to the purpose for which the certificate was requested. This will continue, but the police

will now apply a more rigorous test before deciding whether to disclose information. At the moment they include information if it ‘might be relevant’ and ought to be disclosed. From September, they will include it if they ‘reasonably believe [it] to be relevant’ and consider that it ought to be disclosed.

In addition, if any of that information is included on an enhanced CRB certificate and the applicant does not think that it should be, they will now be able to ask the Independent Monitor to review it, and the Independent Monitor can ask the CRB to issue a new certificate, either without that information or with amendments to it. Applicants should be encouraged to inform you when they request such a review and to update you about what happens with their certificate.

[amy247]

Apparantly i should have declared all allegations to my employer too. I informed them i do not need to declare allegations. I have been told because the law has gone strict i am now seen as a risk when visiting people.

[SNALF]

Are you suspended Amy?

[amy247]

Yes

[SNALF]

I don't think they have a strong case Amy. Can you answer a couple of questions for me? When the CRB checks were done over the past couple of years, did anything show up and did they meet with you about it? In other words, did they know and not have a problem with it until a third party interfered? Did you receive any sort of conviction as a result of the allegations? Even a bind over or caution? Can you remember as far back as the time that you applied, did the application form ask about just convictions or anything pending too?

[jackieandwayne]

Amy, I just heard something about CRB on the news. If I heard it right (I was chopping onions and crying at the time!) it seems that the court has found that (in these two cases anyway) the use of CRB is against Human Rights. One was a 21 yr old male who received a caution at 11 which kept coming up everytime he applied for a job. I believe the government are looking to appeal.

 

I also understand how upset you are. When these things were first introduced, my then partner, almost lost a job of many years because of it. When he was 17 he thought it a wonderful idea to fashion a tax disc out of a piece of cornflake packet and fix it to his scooter. Got a caution. Anyway just after his 42nd birthday, they introduced these things, and he was actually suspended because they tried to say he hadn't disclosed it! For goodness sake he only recalled it when it came to light. He was in a Union and they sorted it out for the nonsense that it was.

 

I hope you get this sorted out - it is a complete and utter load of old twaddle.

[honeybee13]

I saw that too, J&W. As I heard it, there is a delay before anything is likely to happen, but it would be nice if this helped the OP.

 

I'll try to find a link and post it as a separate thread.

 

HB

[honeybee13]

Here's the link, it says the government is going to appeal.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21245308

 

HB

[amy247]

They knew about it all because they spoke to me about 1 conviction about 6 months back and they were happy to allow me to continue with employment. I was sent the crb at the time and everything was on it. They never mentioned the other notes and alligations until this other party got involved. Iv been told the law has changed on child safty and as im out visiting people i am now a possible risk. I dont think i would have had any problems if it wasnt for this other party who brought it up. I have worked hard and never had any complaints on me at work. These false alligations have really affected my life.

[BazzaS]

my employer over the past 4 years has carried out two enhanced CRB checks on me and all has been fine. My employer has never had a complaint about me and I have been an outstanding employee. Recently after a meeting with an external agency they have been made aware I had two allegations of assult on my CRB and these go back 4 plus years. Both cases were dropped and not proven. They were false allegations against me. My employer was never concerned before and had the information but now that some external agency i.e police or social services have raised it with them they are pursuing it and I am facing a dismissal hearing. I stated to my employer why was this not mentioned when they intially did the CRB 4 years ago. The answer was now the external agency has made us aware we must act. Can someone advise me if they dismiss me do I have a case of unfair dismissal or how should I argue my case when I am at the hearing? any help is appreciated.

 

 

They knew about it all because they spoke to me about 1 conviction about 6 months back and they were happy to allow me to continue with employment. I was sent the crb at the time and everything was on it. They never mentioned the other notes and alligations until this other party got involved. Iv been told the law has changed on child safty and as im out visiting people i am now a possible risk. I dont think i would have had any problems if it wasnt for this other party who brought it up. I have worked hard and never had any complaints on me at work. These false alligations have really affected my life.

 

Your initial post (quoted) didn't mention a conviction, only the allegations where no prosecution / caution resulted.

 

Is the conviction for an offence involving violence? When was the conviction (if recent, it might be that the police chose not to release the extra info previously, but have been influenced to release it by the conviction?)

Edited January 29, 2013 by BazzaS

[Surfer01]

I wonder how many MPs would get through an enhanced CRB check? Considering they visit homes etc they should be subject to the same tests!

[assisted blonde]

As far as I am aware the court were concerned with offences of a minor not affecting the future prospects of someone in employment, one case involved someone who had 2 cautions when they were 11, that makes sense to me. The OP didnt say how old they were when their these 2 allegations were made and just because they were dropped dosnt mean the offence may not have happened just that there was insuffficient evidence to be realetivly sure of a conviction. however assuming the OP is innocent the arrests will still be on your record although not on the CRB and the police can give this information out if they feal it is relevent.

The OP should have told their employer about these allegations. More worrying is the fact that the OP does have a conviction although we dont know what for. The employer has a duty of care to the people that their employees visit and so have to be very careful who they employ and if these allegations have only just come to light I can see that they would have to suspend the OP while investigating.

Hopfully the clean work record and honesty on the part of the employee will result in a return to work fairly soon unless as previously said the conviction was recent in which case it may be a different matter.

[Feebee_71]

Will your employer be providing a service on behalf of this outside agency? If so, then your employer (and you by carrying out the service) is representing this outside agency and I would think they could set stricter terms than your employer has to date. Equally, if this is the case, is there any way your employer could maintain your level of work if you didn't do anything connected to that outside agency?

 

Just questions to mull over as to why something that wasn't an issue previously could now cause problems!!

 

Feebee_71

[amy247]

They will be working with this agency and im guessing its a jointly funded work. There is plenty of other positions within my work where im not working directly with the public. Im worried if i ask to be moved its a sign of guilt and they may think i myself am saying im a risk when im not. I have seen other employees moved into other positions due to personal issues but i dont know if they will want to keep me.

[SNALF]

Moving you may be their only option Amy. If they accepted your past and were happy to continue working with you, they now have third party pressure due to another agency becoming involved. In that situation, they could end your contract under SOSR (Some Other Substantial Reason). However, before doing so, the employer must take into account the extent of any injustice to the employee. If the employer fails to do so, the dismissal may be unfair. Have a read of two cases which were won by the employee, you can google them. They don't relate to CRB checks, but they do relate to SOSR due to third party pressure. Dando v Britannia Services Group Ltd and Greenwood v Whiteghyll Plastics. Study them and use them in your disciplinary to warn the employer that dismissal may be unfair and they have a duty to move you into another post if one is available. They cannot create a role for you so make sure that other work is available. They have a duty to move other people around to slot you in.

[BazzaS]

They will be working with this agency and im guessing its a jointly funded work. There is plenty of other positions within my work where im not working directly with the public. Im worried if i ask to be moved its a sign of guilt and they may think i myself am saying im a risk when im not. I have seen other employees moved into other positions due to personal issues but i dont know if they will want to keep me.

 

Your initial post (quoted above) didn't mention a conviction, only the allegations where no prosecution / caution resulted.

 

Is the conviction for an offence involving violence? When was the conviction (if recent, it might be that the police chose not to release the extra info previously, but have been influenced to release it by the conviction?)

 

It is hard to offer advice likely to be valid without this additional information.

[amy247]

I got a conviction for stoping a dispute no violence involved and because i was there they convicted me anyway. Work did a crb a week afta this and it showed up along with the previous alligations. They asked me about conviction only and they saw the alligations on there but no mention of them. I explained the conviction and they were happy to allow my employment to continue. But 4 yrs on these alligations have been dragged up by someone. They were false alligations of assult on a miner which i did not do. I reported some kids for swearing at me they went and made alligations to police. Anyway now im some how a risk to people and im probably going to get sacked for this all beacuse safeguarding children is a major priority now. I couldnt agree more with this but im not a risk to anyone. If anything i have reported people myself for neglect of children. Not sure where i stand with all this now.

[fletch70]

I do believe that far more often than we imagine people are wrongly convicted or at least convicted for the wrong crime. I also believe that the hysteria caused by a global 24 hour news culture has made people paranoid. However saying that, if i was told that someone had been accused twice of some type of child abuse then i would wonder.

[amy247]

Only one alligation was from a minor the other was a spitefull ex. I was meant to have swore to the minor i wasnt an abuser or something like that. No charges or cautions were given to me.

[CRblogger]

Moving you may be their only option Amy. If they accepted your past and were happy to continue working with you, they now have third party pressure due to another agency becoming involved. In that situation, they could end your contract under SOSR (Some Other Substantial Reason). However, before doing so, the employer must take into account the extent of any injustice to the employee. If the employer fails to do so, the dismissal may be unfair. Have a read of two cases which were won by the employee, you can google them. They don't relate to CRB checks, but they do relate to SOSR due to third party pressure. Dando v Britannia Services Group Ltd and Greenwood v Whiteghyll Plastics. Study them and use them in your disciplinary to warn the employer that dismissal may be unfair and they have a duty to move you into another post if one is available. They cannot create a role for you so make sure that other work is available. They have a duty to move other people around to slot you in.

Noticeably Dando and Greenwood are both employment law cases. An alternative is to use the recently consolidated intentional economic tort of procurement of breach of contract. There are several advantages: (a) you don't have to prove any of that unfairness rubbish; (b) you don't have to prove knowledge (that it would cause breach of contract), turning a blind eye is enough; © likewise you don't have to prove intention; (d) you don't even have to go after the employer, who if anything will become on-side as they also will have their own case against the third party for recruitment costs, legal costs at tribunals etc. However, because good faith is a defence, this should probably be targeted against the people who knew that processing the data was unlawful.

[smokejumper]

As you say it doesn't mean they didn't happen, but if it can't be proven that they happened, surely they should be taken as though they didn't happen.

 

If not then any unfounded allegation can be held against you, where is the justice in that.

 

Shall we decide Kevin Webster carried out the alleged assaults, he was found innocent because they couldn't prove his guilt.

 

Or are you using employment discipline case to say he was guilty in probability.

 

just because they were dropped dosnt mean the offence may not have happened just that there was insuffficient evidence to be realetivly sure of a conviction. however assuming the OP is innocent the arrests will still be on your record although not on the CRB and the police can give this information out if they feal it is relevent.