Parking in unsigned bay within CPZ

[Andrew Parker]

In Mount Pleasant, St Albans, there is a parking bay with two spaces marked out with white lines but no accompanying sign at the roadside. This is similar to a number of other bays in the neighbourhood except that all the others do have accompanying signs showing restrictions eg Mon-Fri 10.30am-12.30pm and Mon-Sat 8am-8.30pm.

 

There are no white lines linking separate bays. Each bay is marked out with white lines and has kerbing at the end of each bay to clearly define their extent.

 

There is a sign on the other side of the road from the unsigned bay. This sign overlooks an old bay where the remains of white lines delineating previous parking bays have all but disappeared, with newer double yellow lines at the roadside.

 

I am guessing that the local authority has simply omitted to move the sign showing the hours of restriction to the other side of the road when the newer bays were created.

 

If I were to park in the unsigned bay, would I have a strong case if I were to receive a PCN?

[renegadeimp]

Could you post a pic of the area, or a google streetmap view?

[crem]

You'd need to check it is not in a CPZ or something similar where a "global restriction/rules" apply.

 

As said, a google link would be helpful

[Andrew Parker]

I will see if I can find any signs leading into the CPZ - I am not aware of any - and attempt to work out how to use Google to obtain a map for this area.

 

Will try to do this today.

[Andrew Parker]

I have checked Google but unfortunately this shows the old parking bay which was on the opposite side of the road from the new bay. The sign has not moved from the original position.

 

I have checked the Council's website and the CPZ page states:

Residents Parking Scheme

A residents' parking scheme operates in St Albans. This means that only drivers with the correct permits can park in certain streets. Please check the operational hours of the zone, which will be shown on a sign in each parking space, before leaving your vehicle.

[Andrew Parker]

I have now checked all routes into the CPZ and there are no signs at any of the entry points. The only signs are those in each parking bay.

 

I have attached some photographs to show the signless bay and the sign on the other side of the road.

 

The signs restricts unpermitted parking to between 8pm and 8.30am.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]41024[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]41026[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]41025[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]41027[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]41028[/ATTACH]

[Andrew Parker]

I have now checked the main entry points into St Albans and there appear to be no signs indicating a CPZ although it does exists. The only signs are at each parking bay -- except the one I have been writing about.

 

Here are five photographs showing the signless bay -- with blue MG parked in one of the two spaces - and the sign on the other side of the road where a parking bay used to be. The sign restricts unpermitted parking to between 8pm and 8.30 Mon-Fri. A hundred or so yards away the restriction is to prevent parking for two hours from 10.30am.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]41029[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]41031[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]41030[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]41032[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]41033[/ATTACH]

[Andrew Parker]

Apologies for accidental double posting when I went into 'Go Advanced' mode

[Michael Browne]

I have now checked all routes into the CPZ and there are no signs at any of the entry points.

 

Not completely true, after only a quick look there are entry signs at the top of Branch Rd and on Verulam Rd nr junct of Kingsbury Ave

[Andrew Parker]

I'll go and take a look now and see what they say. I am not, of course questioning whether these spaces are within a CPZ.

[Michael Browne]

The signs say 'Times, days and limits signed in bays'

 

http://goo.gl/maps/iALzI

[Andrew Parker]

The signs say 'Times, days and limits signed in bays'

 

http://goo.gl/maps/iALzI

 

I am unobservant. Grateful for any conclusions on the unsigned parking spaces.

[crem]

The signs say 'Times, days and limits signed in bays'

 

http://goo.gl/maps/iALzI

 

that would still tend to uphold APs claim that in that particular bay there are no signs showing any restriction and therefore, in the absence of any "global default" times being shown on the CPZ entry, he has not contravened any stated parking times.

[Andrew Parker]

Thank you, Michael and crem, I was hoping this might be the case. renegadeimp, I would be grateful for any additional view before I go into battle.

[Andrew Parker]

or anyone else, of course!

[Michael Browne]

I am unobservant. Grateful for any conclusions on the unsigned parking spaces.

As crem says the entry signs do not give specific times. Both the signs and St Albans website say individual bays are signed. Therefore it is not unreasonable that where there is no time plate in a bay, parking is unrestricted at that location.

[Michael Browne]

I would be grateful for any additional view before I go into battle.

Have you actually received a PCN. Your first post suggested otherwise

[Andrew Parker]

I have received no PCN for this location. I would like to use the parking space until a sign goes up on the bay, assuming I will have a suitable challenge in the possible event that I will receive one.

[Michael Browne]

Ok, fine. Come back when you do. I'd be interested to see St Albans reasoning for rejection (which they will almost certainly do)

[Andrew Parker]

My fear is that they will say the sign on the other side of the road is sufficient.

[renegadeimp]

You could always enquire with the council and see what they say. You havent got a ticket yet, so theres no need to worry. Make sure to get the councils response in writing to cover your own back.

[Michael Browne]

My fear is that they will say the sign on the other side of the road is sufficient.

 

a) Timeplates only apply to that bay, not other bays across the street or down the road

b) The CPZ entry sign specifically says that bays are signed..

[Andrew Parker]

Good point. I would be interested to know if anyone has taken a similar case to a parking tribunal and the outcome.

[Michael Browne]

You could always enquire with the council and see what they say.

 

I wouldn't, it would merely alert them to the lack of signage. Plus they are hardly likely to admit in writing that's it perfectly OK to park there.

[Michael Browne]

Good point. I would be interested to know if anyone has taken a similar case to a parking tribunal and the outcome.

http://keycases.parkingandtrafficappeals.gov.uk/docs/Cooper-v-Richmond.pdf