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    • Hi all, We bought a part to fix our washing machine approx 13 months ago direct from the manufacturer of the washing machine via phone. This part then failed 13 months later, as confirmed by their own engineer, who was sent by the manufacturer (who is also the retailer for the part) FoC. The engineer actually installed a replacement part, the machine came back to life, but they then removed the part used for testing (and ours reinstalled) as "we would be charged for it". The retailer are refusing to replace the part, stating that they only warranty parts for 90 days. When I stated that I believed the Consumer Rights Act gives me longer than that, they insinuated that it did not, and this was repeated by many representatives. AIUI for goods bought more than 6 months ago, I need to get an engineers report to confirm the part has failed? Or that it has failed due to manufacturing issues? Or would the companies own engineers report suffice? Also, does anyone have any other decent contact details for Hotpoint (or the Whirlpool group)? Thanks, GH
    • Thank you for that "read me", It's a lot to digest, lots of legal procedure. There was one thing that I was going to mention to you,  but in one of the conversations in that thread it was mentioned that there may be spies on the Forum,  this is something that I've read quite some time ago in a previous thread. What I had in mind was to wait for the thirty days after their reply to my CCA request and then send the unenforceable letter. I was hoping that an absence of signature could be the Silver Bullet but it seems that there are lot of layers to peel on this Onion.  
    • love the extra £1000 charge for confidentialy there BF   Also OP even if they don't offer OOC it doesn't mean your claim isn't good. I had 3 against EVRi that were heard over the last 3 weeks. They sent me emails asking me to discontinue as I wouldn't win. Went infront of a judge and won all 3.    Just remember the law is on your side. The judges will be aware of this.   Where you can its important to try to point out at the hearing the specific part of the contract they breached. I found this was very helpful and the Judge made reference to it when they gave their judgements and it seemed this was pretty important as once you have identified a specific breach the matter turns straight to liability. From there its a case of pointing out the unlawfullness of their insurance and then that should be it.
    • I know dx and thanks again for yours and others help. I was 99.999% certain last payment was over six years ago if not longer.  👍
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Wife used my monthly Train ticket and got caught - ** SETTLED **


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I will be back on the page - if/when the letter arrives to ask for more advice on the potential charges and how we can work together to fix it? Looking at some of the examples on here, it puts our situation of 'wife takes husbands train pass' into a light-crime category as we have not assaulted the ticket inspector, broken into the train cab to "sit down", or been drunk and crack on with smashing the place up?! Some amazing stories on here - all of which i hope are also sorted!

 

Will keep you updated!

Regards.

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I will be back on the page - if/when the letter arrives to ask for more advice on the potential charges and how we can work together to fix it? Looking at some of the examples on here, it puts our situation of 'wife takes husbands train pass' into a light-crime category as we have not assaulted the ticket inspector, broken into the train cab to "sit down", or been drunk and crack on with smashing the place up?! Some amazing stories on here - all of which i hope are also sorted!

 

Will keep you updated!

Regards.

 

Whilst it may not be a violent or physically reckless crime, it is premeditated and evidently fraudulent/dishonest.

 

I, and I suspect others, within the industry, view this as a crime of medium severity. The problem with fare evasion/ticket misuse is that people, like yourself, do not consider the wider picture. People assume that it only amounts to a couple of quid for the odd journey here and there, but the reality is that ATOC estimate £200million is lost through fare evasion on the railway.

 

It is estimated that the £200m currently lost every year due to fare dodging would be enough to:

 

- Lease over 1,300 extra commuter carriages, or;

- Lease around 800 extra inter-city carriages for longer distance journeys, or;

- Pay for the upkeep of around 380 stations for the next five years.

 

ATOC also state that the "average single fare" is £5.00, (presumably this data comes from a system called LENNON). Lets say, though, that the average fare is actually £100.

 

That could still be 2 million people evading the fare each year, which is probably a slight underestimate. (Using the £5 fare suggests that 40million people do).

 

 

So whilst you may consider your case to be a "light crime", it, unfortunately, is not so, in my opinion.

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That could still be 2 million people evading the fare each year, which is probably a slight underestimate. (Using the £5 fare suggests that 40million people do). .

 

 

For clarification, that estimate suggests that 40 million average passenger journeys go unpaid each year, not that there are 40 million individual fare evaders.

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I agree 100% with first class... but he missed out on paying for HS2 as well :lol:

 

But seriously, most of the cases bought here are from people who get caught and then we hear all sorts of sob stories. I wonder how many times the people who don't get caught, have defrauded public transport previously and continue to do so until they do and then come here for help!

 

Mind you, at least this case isn't about a concessionary pass!

 

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I have to add a point. I have lost count of the number of journeys i could have made without buying a ticket either because no one comes to sell tickets from an unmanned station or there is no one at the barriers. I think before people in the industry get on their high horses they should put their own house in order.

 

On top of that the systems of rail fares in this country is a joke but that's gore another day

Any opinion I give is from personal experience .

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But seriously, most of the cases bought here are from people who get caught and then we hear all sorts of sob stories. I wonder how many times the people who don't get caught, have defrauded public transport previously and continue to do so until they do and then come here for help!

 

Mind you, at least this case isn't about a concessionary pass!

 

I was saying something similar lats night. There are people who play the system for a long time and never get caught and dont care... sadly in my scenario, the one time it happens...BANG!

I hope for my scenario the system realises that we are not full time system benders but normal people who did something silly once?!

 

I am not putting up a sob story by any means as my wife has addmitted fault. I am just trying to find a way to avoid maximum penalties for a silly mistake should that situation arrises?

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I was saying something similar lats night. There are people who play the system for a long time and never get caught and dont care... sadly in my scenario, the one time it happens...BANG!

I hope for my scenario the system realises that we are not full time system benders but normal people who did something silly once?!

 

I am not putting up a sob story by any means as my wife has addmitted fault. I am just trying to find a way to avoid maximum penalties for a silly mistake should that situation arrises?

 

That is not an unreasonable comment, but how are the train/gateline staff to differentiate the regular offender from the "one off"?

How, too, are the prosecution office staff to make the same differentiation?

 

I'm not suggesting it was other than your wife's first offence, but wouldn't the repeat offenders not also claim "this is my 1st time, guv?'"

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True, but i guess items such as - my wife has spent £0000 on previous train fairs to work prior to the baby, we have no record and would come accross as normal people.

 

But i do accept the old logic of ' its the quiet ones you need to look out for?!' so i guess we have to hope that the court (should it go that far) see us and take pity on a stupid decision?

 

I would love to question a prosecutor and give him an integrity test, knowing that he would be thinking long and hard whether he had done anything not so similar just once?!

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I would love to question a prosecutor and give him an integrity test, knowing that he would be thinking long and hard whether he had done anything not so similar just once?!

 

I like to think that every case that crosses my desk is dealt with on merit and I hope that everyone else in the same position does exactly the same thing.

 

However, I hope that I am also enough of a realist to recognise that we are all human, but there also comes a time when a judgment has to be made in every case.

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Well, there's no guarantee that they will tie it up with the other papers about your wife, but as you say, you can show them a copy later I suppose.

 

It's not what we normally recommend, but you feel better, it counts for something.

 

HB

 

Yes; they may well have just coughed to things that they weren't going to get charged with :whoo:

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Hello again everyone.

Well 14days later and a letter arrived from the FCC Prosecution department.

 

They intend on taking our case to the Magistrates Court.

Details of offence:

 

- Receiving a ticket with intent

-Entering a train for the purpose of travelling without a ticket entitling travel.

We have 14days to repsond with our statement and account of what happened.

 

If anyone has read my previous posts here you will see our situation.

 

Can anyone offer some advice? We know this one off offence was wrong and are not disputing this but I am really trying to find a way to avoid a court action and criminal record for one stupid mistake (because of employment reasons)

 

In english, what does "Receiving a ticket with intent" mean?

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ok

 

now what you need to do is write a grovelling letter etc etc

 

and offer to pay all adin/costs/fines to avoid a criminal record

 

do not waffle!

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Hello again everyone.

Well 14days later and a letter arrived from the FCC Prosecution department.

 

They intend on taking our case to the Magistrates Court.

Details of offence:

 

- Receiving a ticket with intent

-Entering a train for the purpose of travelling without a ticket entitling travel.

We have 14days to repsond with our statement and account of what happened.

 

If anyone has read my previous posts here you will see our situation.

 

Can anyone offer some advice? We know this one off offence was wrong and are not disputing this but I am really trying to find a way to avoid a court action and criminal record for one stupid mistake (because of employment reasons)

 

In english, what does "Receiving a ticket with intent" mean?

 

Sounds like they are prosecuting for 2 different offences:

 

"- Receiving a ticket with intent" sounds like Byelaw 21(2)

No person shall transfer or receive any unused or partly used ticket, intending that any person shall use it for travelling unless the conditions of use for the ticket specifically permit such transfer.

 

"Entering a train for the purpose of travelling without a ticket entitling travel" sounds like Byelaw 18(1)

[...] No person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.

 

If it gets to court, which it will, assuming you do not settle out of court, I would anticipate you are looking at a fine of around £500-£750, costs of around £100, victim surcharge around £50-£75, and made to pay the full standard (or first class if appropiate) single fare. The legal maximum is £1000 PER OFFENCE, (i.e. £2000), plus the other costs, but unless you have previous or are especially obnoxious, the TOTAL for everything should be near £1000.

Edited by firstclassx
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I assume this is worst case scenario? Plus I imagine a criminal record?

 

Seems oh so high considering its a one-off offence, no previous convictions, years or season tickets paid for and a silly mistake?

 

If they are By-laws - are they criminal offences?

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yes they are but i'd as post 39

 

its 1st offence - most pleading letters seem to work.

but each case is diff.

 

everyone here can speculate what might happen as this and that rul has been broken

 

however, they are not the prosecuting officer in this case.

 

dont get worried or frightened off.

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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"dont get worried or frightened off."...

 

from the opinions or the system?! :)

 

Would we be right in replying to the letter of intent to prosecute by admitting fault straight away

and then spending the rest of the letter apologising, offering to pay costs etc and reason why a criminal record would be do more harm long term to my family than any financial fine? -

 

saying to FCC - OK guys, you made your point, I have a distraught wife and we have all realised the seriousness of what was done, but can we avoid court and criminal records by settling?

noveum.

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yes you can.

 

it does work

 

not guaranteed but it does work

each case is diff though

so is each TOC.

 

family harm yes

distraught wife no,

reasons for avoiding a criminal record yes.

 

beg plead grovel

 

but dont waffle or mention anything not directly related

and refrain from 'pointing any rules or regs' out to them.

 

could cost +300 but thats better than a ruined life/job future

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Unless you work in a particularly sensitive position then these Byelaw convictions need not be declared anyway as they only appear on Enhanced or DV disclosures.

 

£2500 is worst case scenario in court, it won't happen though.

 

£1000 is probably a reasonable estimate if convicted of the 2 offences.

 

I would cautiously construct an apology, but you must make sure you do not implicate your partner, who may too find herself in court as a result of the incident.

 

Even if they do not accept the settlement offer, you must take extreme care when being questioned by the prosecutor/court not to implicate your wife, especially under oath.

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I think we should put some real perspective into this

 

If you are not able to convince FCC to allow an out of Court disposal, you could be facing two possible charges as mentioned previously

 

The maximum penalty upon conviction is the same, whether the charge is breach of Byelaw or 'Intent to avoid a fare', it is fine up to Level 3 on the standard scale, which in practice means £1000.

 

The Section 5 offence (intent to avoid a fare) is clearly the more serious and only for a second or subsequent offence may a Court consider a term of imprisonment. Put that out of your mind.

 

Now, let's assume worst case scenario, you are facing two charges and have no previous convictions. Let's assume they proceed with both charges.

 

The Magistrates, on conviction, will reduce the maximum fine because of it being a first offence to what is known as the 'entry level' and this is equal to the currently assessed average weekly wage. This is presently £400

 

You will plead guilty and so the Magistrates will give credit for your early guilty plea and will reduce the fine further accordingly. The usual reduction is around one third.

 

So, fine for 'intent to avoid a fare' = £400 less discount for guilty plea = Fine of £265. This is the one that carries a criminal conviction. (Band B on Magistrates sentencing guidelines)

 

Next, Fine for breach of Byelaw = half the fine for 'intent to avoid a fare' = £200 less discount for guilty plea = Fine of £130 ( Less serious = Band A on Magistrates sentencing guidelines)

 

Add £265 to £130 = total fines of £395

 

Prosecution costs may be awarded in full and will probably be around £150

 

Plus victim surcharge of £80

 

A worst case scenario total penalty of £625 plus the unpaid fare/s

 

 

This can vary a little according to the Magistrates discretion, but they do have to work to a set of guidelines issued by the Ministry of Justice and it will be in that order. Additionally, the prosecutor may claim higher costs for preparing two files

 

Of that total, all that FCC will get if they proceed to prosecution is their costs plus the unpaid fare

 

Any offer to the TOC should be reflective of their reasonably incurred costs in dealing with the matter and ought to offer some compensation too, for your fault in breaching the rules, but should not be ridiculously excessive.

 

I would write with a sincere apology, sticking to facts, but do make sure that you recognise the seriousness of the error of judgment and offer to pay all of their reasonably incurred costs and any outstanding fares in order to compensate the rail company fully when asking if the matter can be disposed of without court action.

Edited by Old-CodJA
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Thanks Old-Codja. When you put it like this, it is clear in my eyes that FCC should be happy to settle out of court? ...But i understand they sometimes need to flex their corporate legal arm?..

 

Just one thing though - you say "A worst case scenario total penalty of £625 plus the unpaid fare/s". But are you not missing ...'and a criminal conviction form the 1st charge?

 

I will be assisting my wife with the letter tomorrow to append to the form from FCC prosecution dept.

 

Within the letter; for this section: "offer to pay all of their reasonably incurred costs and any outstanding fares", do we offer and wait for them to respond with a figure or should i throw into the mix an amount we are willing to offer?

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I believe that this would be explained in court but if your first plea is guilty then there is an automatic reduction of sentence by one third. Criminal cases are now pretty much set by starting point plus or minus any aggrevating or mitigating circumstances and the early plea reduction.

Any opinion I give is from personal experience .

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I believe that this would be explained in court but if your first plea is guilty then there is an automatic reduction of sentence by one third. Criminal cases are now pretty much set by starting point plus or minus any aggrevating or mitigating circumstances and the early plea reduction.

 

Hello fletch.

 

Are you referring to criminal cases or other offences please? I'm not sure if they're the same as transport ones.

 

HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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