Caught by Revenue officer

[mopo54321]

Hi,

 

I was caught by a Revenue officer at Ealing with a legitimate ticket for the return journey, but he wanted to check my oyster card. Earlier in the day I couldn't tap in and therefore had to tap out at Paddington where I was charged the maximum fare (£7.20) anyway. The officer didn't show me any ID, and told me my rights and cautioned me. He then questioned me and wrote them as well as my answers down. He let me read this and made me sign it. He also said I would have to explain any incomplete journeys on the oyster history, but if I bought my paper tickets with cash I have no way to prove this. He said I will be receiving a letter in 3-4 weeks.

 

Im really worried about what this could lead to, as I am a medical student, and cant afford to have any sort of criminal record. I just wanted to know whether the caution he told me was a police caution, and what the likelihood of events from now is. What are the chances of a criminal record?

 

Many thanks in advance,

 

mopo54321

[honeybee13]

Hello and welcome to CAG.

 

I hope the forum regulars will be along later with advice or possibly questions for you. Please bear with us until they're able to get here.

 

My best, HB

[BazzaS]

Hi,

 

I was caught by a Revenue officer at Ealing with a legitimate ticket for the return journey, but he wanted to check my oyster card. Earlier in the day I couldn't tap in and therefore had to tap out at Paddington where I was charged the maximum fare (£7.20) anyway. The officer didn't show me any ID, and told me my rights and cautioned me. He then questioned me and wrote them as well as my answers down. He let me read this and made me sign it. He also said I would have to explain any incomplete journeys on the oyster history, but if I bought my paper tickets with cash I have no way to prove this. He said I will be receiving a letter in 3-4 weeks.

 

Im really worried about what this could lead to, as I am a medical student, and cant afford to have any sort of criminal record. I just wanted to know whether the caution he told me was a police caution, and what the likelihood of events from now is. What are the chances of a criminal record?

 

Many thanks in advance,

 

mopo54321

 

The question you have re: "is this a police caution" can be answered by considering the 2 types of 'caution' :

 

1) a PACE caution ("anything you say can be given in evidence, it may harm your defence if you fail to mention something you later rely on in court") , which this likely was, and

2) A formal caution accepted from a police officer (usually of rank of Inspector or above), administered in a police station.

 

The latter involves an admission of guilt, and will show in an Enhanced CRB.

The former ("PACE") caution can be administered by a Railway Official who has been trained to do so, and it means that the notes they then make can be used as evidence in Court proceedings.

 

So, if it was a PACE caution, it isn't an immediate criminal record as would result from accepting a formal police caution : but this doesn't preclude them from using the evidence they have gathered in a latter prosecution.

 

I'm uncertain from your original post : did you have a valid ticket?. If you'd been charged a £7.20 fare for the day, had there been credit to cover this on your Oyster, and if so, why did he think he needed to stop you and interview you?

Edited January 26, 2013 by BazzaS

[mopo54321]

Thank you for replying.

 

I had a perfectly valid ticket on the way back to home, and my oyster had more than sufficient money to cover the fare i was charged. I'm not sure whether he stopped me because of what happened earlier on that day (not tapping in from where I entered the train), or whether he thinks I am a serial offender because he mentioned that I will have to explain the incomplete journeys on my oyster history. The problem with the latter case is that I do not have any proof of buying the tickets that I did because I threw the tickets away and I don't have any proof of purchase either.

[honeybee13]

Thank you for replying.

 

I had a perfectly valid ticket on the way back to home, and my oyster had more than sufficient money to cover the fare i was charged. I'm not sure whether he stopped me because of what happened earlier on that day (not tapping in from where I entered the train), or whether he thinks I am a serial offender because he mentioned that I will have to explain the incomplete journeys on my oyster history. The problem with the latter case is that I do not have any proof of buying the tickets that I did because I threw the tickets away and I don't have any proof of purchase either.

 

Hello again.

 

I think you may need to wait until you receive the letter from TfL or whoever stopped you.

 

Bazza has explained the rules to you and I can see that not having any paper trail could be a problem. You need to appreciate that while I'm sure you're genuine, RPIs and the courts have heard it all before about throwing away tickets and not having receipts.

 

Sadly, until the letter arrives, usually 4-6 weeks, it's hard to know what to advise you. Once you have the letter, I'm sure people here will help you to draft a reply.

 

HB

[BazzaS]

Hello again.

 

I think you may need to wait until you receive the letter from TfL or whoever stopped you.

 

Bazza has explained the rules to you and I can see that not having any paper trail could be a problem. You need to appreciate that while I'm sure you're genuine, RPIs and the courts have heard it all before about throwing away tickets and not having receipts.

 

Sadly, until the letter arrives, usually 4-6 weeks, it's hard to know what to advise you. Once you have the letter, I'm sure people here will help you to draft a reply.

 

HB

 

HB is correct : await the letter as for now we don't know what, if anything they are accusing you of.

 

I've cut and pasted the following from my reply on another thread to save re typing it all:

 

Usually, the TOC writes to you stating they are considering prosecution, and asking for your explanation. At that point, you need to decide if you have committed the offence.

If someone feels they are not guilty (especially if on seeking advice they aren't the only person who sees it that way!) then they should answer accordingly.

 

If they feel that they didn't have a defence and wish to avoid court, it is worth:

a) answering truthfully (any fibs may harden their resolve to prosecute). One doesn't have to "tell the whole truth", as sometimes it is worth not focusing on some points, but don't lie!

b) make any points in mitigation. However, saying "the RPI was surly" or "I was victimised" rarely helps ....

c) make an apology, and ask if they would consider settling outside of court.

 

There is no "magic formula" or "templateletter" ; it is more likely to succeed if it is perceived as heartfelt.

I imagine that if they read the 20th "standard template letter" of the day that it is less likely to succeed than an honest, apologetic, well written letter.

Even so, they don't have to not summons you : they can choose to continue with a prosecution.

[\QUOTE]

 

So, wait and see what the letter says. It will be hard to wait, but difficult to advise without knowing what (IF ANYTHING) you are accused of.

 

 

Bear in mind, unless it is clear you are guilty of a "strict liability" offence, (bearing in mind you say you haven't kept some paper tickets), it is still their responsibility to prove you are guilty, rather than you having to prove your innocence.

 

Post back with the details when you have the letter : then people can help you formulate your reply if you haven't done wrong, or help you mitigate the risk of prosecution if you have done wrong.

 

Even if someone has committed an offence, there is hope of getting them to settle out if court (so no criminal record) as long as there was no fraud or deliberate abuse of a concessionairy / discounted Oyster.

[mopo54321]

Many thanks for the help given so far.

 

With regards to the last post, would I be right in saying that there is no criminal record at all with an out of court settlement? And I have read in a few cases that things can get recorded in an enhanced CRB. What exactly is this and would anything be recorded here? Also, if I plead guilty to whatever they charge me but offer an out of court settlement would this result in a criminal record?

[BazzaS]

Many thanks for the help given so far.

 

With regards to the last post, would I be right in saying that there is no criminal record at all with an out of court settlement? And I have read in a few cases that things can get recorded in an enhanced CRB. What exactly is this and would anything be recorded here? Also, if I plead guilty to whatever they charge me but offer an out of court settlement would this result in a criminal record?

 

Lets not get ahead of ourselves. Await the letter.

 

But, to answer your queries:

 

Out of court setllent -> no criminal record, nothing on CRB / DBS check.

 

Enhanced CRB : Enhanced Disclosure of the Criminal Records Bureau which has now become the "Disclosure and Barring Service". When you apply for certain jobs (teacher, doctor, lawyer), you need to declare any and all convictions even if they are 'spent' under the terms of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Legislation.

So, even a minor offence, that you could decline to reveal 10 years later if going for an ordinary factory job, would need to be revealed, and would show on an enhanced CRB or its successor : enhanced DBS

https://www.gov.uk/crb-criminal-records-bureau-check/overview

 

If someone pleads guilty in a court (or by letter in response to a summons) [Or for that matter accepts a formal police caution (but not a "PACE caution" : see my 1st reply, above)] : they get a record of it on an Enhanced DBS.

 

A minor offence showing on a DBS check might not be a bar to employment : but it is a hassle best avoided.

 

For you I'd advise:

Wait for the letter, and see what if anything you are accused of.

Post here when / IF you get a letter. If a truthful reply that helps show you aren't guilty of anything can be formulated : you can get help here.

If you are at risk of being prosecuted +/- then found guilty of an offence : a reply that accepts this but encourages them to offer an alternative to court can be advised on : but even if it came to that, that's a fair way off!

[mopo54321]

Thanks for the reply. I will just have to wait for this dreaded letter then. I will keep you guys up-to-date with what happens. Thank You!!

[BazzaS]

Thanks for the reply. I will just have to wait for this dreaded letter then. I will keep you guys up-to-date with what happens. Thank You!!

 

Did you ever hear anything further ?

[45002]

Did you ever hear anything further ?

 

Hello BazzaS.

 

Have a read of this 2 page thread by ronnie007 aka mopo54321

 

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=78556

 

Edited December 6, 2013 by 45002

[BazzaS]

Hello BazzaS.

 

Have a read of this 2 page thread by ronnie007 aka mopo54321

 

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=78556

 

 

Am I reading that correctly? S/he gets a return train from Langley and buys a return to/from Ealing as a "short fare"?

 

Or have I misunderstood?

[45002]

Am I reading that correctly? S/he gets a return train from Langley and buys a return to/from Ealing as a "short fare"?

 

Or have I misunderstood?

 

After reading that thread again.

 

Not sure if the OP is Traveling TO/FROM

 

Ealing

 

Hayes

 

South Kensington

 

London Paddington

 

Langley

 

Barons Court

 

Central London

 

I don't Think OP knew where they where traveling To/From in the 1st place !

[citizenkain]

op seems to get on in slough,gets single ticket at ealing and if no one there on way home is ok,seems complicated!