Yorkshire Bank PPI reclaim, a couple of important questions.

[deadthings]

I'm reclaiming PPI for my neighbour as he hasn't a clue. He's given me his folder which shows he had three loans, each successive loan repaying the other as well as money for other things. Each time the bank has added on PPI to his loan, which eventually totalled almost £4k. There appears to be no rebate at all!

 

The good thing is he kept all of his original statements in order and all of his loan paperwork which includes all of the figures, including how much each PPI was added and the interest added for that PPI. It states duration, loan payment amounts - everything...

 

 

What I need to know is: should I photocopy these statements and send those in with the initial claim?

 

 

I should point out that the loans were initiated 1998 and ended in mid 2000. As I say though I have here ALL of the paperwork pertaining to the loans, all of them.They all have loan account numbers too.

 

He was told he could not have the loans unless he took the PPI.

 

Other than that I am going to submit the questionnaire filled out, a covering letter and either/ and a statement of amount of refund requested and if I should, photocopies of original paperwork.

 

Sorry to be long winded. Other than this I think we're ready to go.

 

Thank you any advice.

 

D.

[ims21]

You don't need to send copies of statements at this point.

 

If the lender comes back and says that they are not upholding due to them not having any records, that is the point you can hit them with the comprehensive copies.

 

Make sure you do a spreadsheet of claim for these accounts and submit that with the completed fos questionnaire.

[deadthings]

OK great thanks. The loan(s) were three, each successive one to pay off the other as well as adding for other purposes. Each time a new loan was taken out they added PPI but there is no mention of a rebate but I'll work out the figures to ensure they haven't deducted it. I'm pretty certain they haven't.

 

There is only one PPI loan agreement paper, even though three loans. That paper does not have an account number (even though the loan agreements all do have numbers) does that matter? Will I need copies of the PPI agreements for all three loans? As I've said I do have all of the loan paperwork which gives out figures in detail for loans, interest and PPI, as well as statements covering all loan payments.

 

Thanks for the support.

 

D.

[ims21]

If you have the agreements and the PPI figures are on them then that is all you need (together with the transaction history of repayments made)

[deadthings]

Just as an update to this. I have had a response from Yorkshire, in which they asked for more time. Now I have had a letter from them stating that due to the length of time since the loans they cannot investigate further. They state that if I have the original loan agreements in my possession that I should forward these to them and they will re-review and investigate my complaint further.

 

I have photocopied all of the agreements, and the first and last bank statement pertaining to the loans, and am sending these off to them. I do not want to send the originals as I do not trust them not to 'lose' them. What I have offered is to personally take all of the originals to a local branch of the Yorkshire so that one of their staff may review them.

 

I have a feeling that they may persist and state that they will not accept that. Any suggestions for what to do if that turns out to be the case?

 

Thanks for the advice.

[ims21]

Under no circumstances should you let them have the originals.

 

Yes provide them with the copies as you suggest and and if they want to certify that they are true copies then you can pop in to the local branch and let them compare them.

 

If they ask for copies of all of the statements, you could be cheeky and ask them of the tenner for their SAR.

 

By having the agreements, you are holding some excellent cards here.

[deadthings]

Thank you so much for your replies, they have been a great help.

 

As an update:

 

I did send some info photocopied as requested by them which they accepted. I got more letters asking or more info. Before I could send any response they suddenly replied with an offer.

 

For the first two loans, they have offered to settle with £3,500. This is a problem for me and why an update. There is no disagreement over interest at all, it is about whether they should refund me the lump sum they took, or just the payments I made.

 

the fact is on each of the three loans, as shown on bank statement I have, they credited my account with the loan, and then took back money to repay an old loan (there was a 4th loan which I have no paperwork for) PLUS they took the charge for the PPI.

I'll highlight some actual numbers, and this will explain my dilemma.

 

1st Loan was in January 2008, for £5331.88, which was £4040.97 to repay old loan. £700 for me. £590.91 for PPI. This is all in the original paperwork that I have.

Their latest letter, states, as I have had an equal amount going into my account, the amount withdrawn still leaves me with £700 so I have suffered no loss. So, they have offered me only two months payments, because I stupidly took another loan after that.

 

Obviously they are ignoring the fact that the lump sum PPI was included in the £5331.88 which I still had to pay back. I've yet to respond to this, to point out their idiocy, and I wanted to check here if people agreed with what I'm saying.

 

My problem is this:

 

AFTER this loan, I made two payments of £251.95 in Feb and March.

 

I then took another loan in April 1998 for £11150 which was made up of £5000 for my new needs, £4537.31 to repay the previous loan, £1612.97 for PPI lump sum.

 

Now my problem is, My 1st loan was £5331.88, which after deducting to payments of £251.95, and then it being paid off with a payment of £4537.31, my figures don't add up.

 

£5331.88 - £251.95 - £251.95 - £4537.88 = £290.67 still left?

 

It's clearly not the whole PPI which has been wiped as that was £590.91. Why is there a discrepancy in the numbers?

 

Has the person issuing the new loan cocked up when working it out?

 

This is why I haven't yet written regarding this to them, as I need some fresh eyes on this to see I'm not going mad!

 

 

*Can I just say (If I've not already) I successfully reclaimed my bank charges with help from here years ago, and if and when I am successful recovering charges here, I will certainly made a donation to the forum, as I did then.

 

Thank you for your help!

 

D.

[Andybars]

Hi,

I think it will be easier for somebody to help with this one if you are able to upload a copy of the letter (minus any personal identifiers) so that somebody can work through the figures in the letter and give you a second opinion

[deadthings]

OK, no problem. Hopefully I have attached it correctly, and I think I have removed all identifying information.

 

From this it looks clearly to me that they are saying as they paid money into my account, and I only had to make two payments on it, they should only refund that much, BUT they ignore the subsequent loan a few months later paid off this loan which included the entire PPI lump sum?

 

Am I wrong

 

I'd appreciate some feedback from someone on this, so I know whether I am right or not. I think I am.

 

Thanks.

 

Anything wrong with the attachment please say.

 

D.

 

*Edited as I had problems attaching a jpeg and so have zipped it. Use Winrar to open it. Thanks.

Edited July 15, 2013 by deadthings

[deadthings]

Not sure why no replies to this query. Even if to say dunno. As it looks like I'm not going to get any advice on this I'll have to go with what I think is right, that as I still had to repay the full amount of the new loan, passed on to the second loan which was paid in full, I should be entitled to a full refund of the original amount including the lump sum of the PPI.

 

Oh well.

 

D.

[ims21]

You might like to have a read of No.1 in y signature about single premium PPI and rollovers from one loan to another.

 

Have you got any information on rebates of PPI when loans were settled?

[deadthings]

Thanks for the response. From looking through the paperwork there has been no mention of a rebate at all, and it does not appear to be factored into the costs, and the bank has appears to have accepted my claim that there was no rebate as they have not mentioned it.

 

I'll read some more on your sig link and reply again shortly.

 

Thanks.

 

D.

[deadthings]

OK, This part:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?318646-PPI-Single-Premium-Your-questions-answered&p=3543230&viewfull=1#post3543230

 

2nd section appears to confirm what has occurred with me.

 

They agreed to loan me £5331.88 and put this amount into my account.

 

On the same day they withdrew:

 

£4040.97 to repay old loan.

£590.91 for the PPI.

 

That left in my account £700.

 

When I took the new loan, they did the same thing again, only for a much larger amount. No rebate mentioned in the 2nd of third loan agreement, and not factored into any figures.

 

So the 2nd loan swallowed up the 1st PPI, adding more PPI, and the 3rd loan did the same thing again.

 

Yorkshire are claiming they only charged me small amounts equal to the payments. The statements and loan agreements say otherwise.

 

What do you make of their letter?

 

D.

[ims21]

Their letter is correct in part in that they only have to refund you what has actually been paid.

 

So in order to check any figures the actual repayments made would need to be established.

 

Their letter makes no reference to any rebates when each loan was settled. Details of rebates won't be on new agreements but should be shown as part of the closing entry on the loan account statements.

 

If you haven't asked the lender to provide details of any rabates given then you should do so.

Edited July 22, 2013 by ims21

[deadthings]

Well Yorkshire claimed they have no paperwork, understandable given that it was 1998-2002. I have 5 years worth of bank statements in order, and they show amounts paid in, taken out and payments made over those years each month, but there is no reference to any rebates on them anywhere. I've looked.

 

The loan agreements on all three loans show detailed figures for amount borrowed, interest and PPI, in whole amounts and individual payments, so I know what each one is, and it is the two payments they wish to refund me, but NOT the rest of the PPI which I believe I paid through the second and third loans, which were ultimately paid off.

 

Of course the bank is only going to pay me back what they owe, but what I'm saying is that at the start of each subsequent loan they paid in a new loan, then removed from my account a lump sum equal to the PPI, in one go, and I then paid off this loan through monthly payments. the first and second loans had no rebate, and there is no mention anywhere on statements or loan agreements of rebates. The entire amount including the balance owing after payments I had made, plus PPI was each time added into the next loan.

 

So they loaned me money to pay the PPI in the form of a loan, which I paid monthly. Even though the first loan only had two payments, the rest of that first loan which included paying off an old loan, some more for me AND the entire PPI were then assumed into the second loan, leaving me with a much larger amount which by then included lump sums for TWO PPI amounts in that one loan.

 

Having looked at the figures I have provided, and their letter, do you think I am wrong about this?

 

I can't see where.

 

D.

[ims21]

Yes you are correct in your appraisal and if no rebates have been given then you are spot on with your thoughts.

 

However, the fact that there is no mention of rebate on your bank statements is not relevant since those rebates (if there were any) would appear in the statements of the loan accounts, not the current account.

 

Using the loan account information you have got and the 5 years bank statements, have you done any calculations to try and get near the amount that you feel should come back to you?

[deadthings]

The loan agreements spell everything out. I sent copies of these to the bank along with photocopies of all relevant statements, so they know only too well what I have claimed.

 

the first loan states:

 

£590.91 for PPI. £79.18 interest on the PPI, Total £670.09.

 

The payments were made up of 23 payments of £27.93 and one payment of £27.70.

 

23*23.93+27.70 = £670.09.

 

They took the interest as part of the repayments, so I accept refund of interest should only be two amounts for two months payment however according to my bank statements they took the actual PPI in a lump sum on the day of the loan.

 

Inclusive of PPI on 1st and 2nd loans with their interest and 8% Simple Interest I came up with a figure around close to £5000, where they have offered £3500.

 

There has been no offer yet on the third loan as I only have 20 statements from that loan, showing 20 payments, where there should have been 30. I expect they will refuse to pay out on it due to not showing completion, even though it did complete.

 

What I'm trying to do is win the battle over them deducting the PPI on loans one and two as a lump sum, as until then I cannot argue over full amounts of interest and then the third loan.

 

This lump sum thing is what is holding it all up. I'm prepared to go to the Ombudsman if necessary.

 

I suspect they think as the loan agreement shows the PPI repayments broken down into 23+1 payments that I did not pay it, but of course the statement and loan two amount shows otherwise.

 

I was thinking of writing and challenging them on the figures, with two payments but a large part of loan two being taken to repay loan one. I have found a clear discrepancy as I mentioned above, so it would be interesting to see their response.

 

Thank you for help.

 

D.

[ims21]

What I'm trying to do is win the battle over them deducting the PPI on loans one and two as a lump sum, as until then I cannot argue over full amounts of interest and then the third loan.

 

With a single premium PPI, the bank lend you the money to pay for the policy and hence there is a one off payment to the insurer at the start (which is what you see happening on your statements). You then pay for that premium over the life of the loan.

 

If a loan settles early there should be a rebate given on the unused part of PPI. That is were the sticking point is...not the lump sum payment at the beginning of the loan.

 

These rebates will not be reflected in any loan agreement. If any were given they will only show on the loan account statement.

 

Have a go at the calculations for all loans using the information given in the item at No.1 in my signature and the spreadsheets at the end.

[deadthings]

OK I think I see what you're getting at. I did provide them with a calculation but I'll go over the figures again and see if I can resolve the differences.

 

Do you have any thoughts on the fact that I don't have all the statements for loan 3? Would they be within their rights to refuse a payout, even though I can show 20 payments?

 

Thanks.

 

D.

[ims21]

If you can provide the solid evidence of payments made then yes they would have to take that into account.

[deadthings]

I've got statements for 3rd loan showing money into the account from the start of the loan, then statements showing each payment for every month for 20 months. I'm going to photocopy the first and last repayment statements, as well as the initial money into the account statement with a breakdown of expected refund, including payments, interest and 8% and then we'll see their response.

 

Thanks.

 

D.

[deadthings]

OK I've had a final response from the bank, stating their final position. We have agreement on the first two loans, but the final third loan, in which I do not have proof it was paid off they flatly refuse to agree payment on, and also they state this is their final response.

 

I guess now I go to the Ombudsman.

 

I recall I actually paid off the loan by getting a new loan from Barclays, which is why the statements stop at this point. My Barclays paperwork was definitely lost in a fire at my home.

 

Thank you.

 

D.

[Andybars]

Take care when signing any acceptance for loans 1 and 2 - Yorkshire Bank have been known to also put the declined loan number(s) on acceptance forms and asking customers to sign a full and final in respect of all the loans. They could then claim to FOS that you had accepted the rejection.

[deadthings]

OK thanks I'll double check that. Sounds crafty and wrong, and I would hope the fos would realize that.

 

D.