Jump to content


victim170113

Is using cctv like this discrmination or harassment?

style="text-align:center;"> Please note that this topic has not had any new posts for the last 2456 days.

If you are trying to post a different story then you should start your own new thread. Posting on this thread is likely to mean that you won't get the help and advice that you need.

If you are trying to post information which is relevant to the story in this thread then please flag it up to the site team and they will allow you to post.

Thank you

Recommended Posts

almost a year old now this thread.................

 

dx

 

Hello dx,

Just last week 17/01/13, an employee who had worked at the company for 3 years had been sent home on verbal suspension without any informal discussion. When he got home, he knew later on from a co-employee that the company activated an old cctv camera in their locker/changing area, but he was not made aware of it. They might have been spying on him for 2 shifts to find some grounds to suspend him. He was told to come back on 18/01/13 to a meeeting. On that informal meeting, the manager who sent him home handed the suspension letter to him and said that he is ready to conduct the disiplinary meeting on that day of 18/01/13. Does ICO need to be informed about possible CCTV code of practice breach. Does the way they try to conduct the disciplinary procedure unfair since they want to go with the hearing without giving copies of evidence to the employee to defend himself? Is this a possible case of harassment or victimisation?

 

Regards,

Victim

Edited by victim170113

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Theres a huge privacy issue here regarding the use of a CCTV in the locker/changing room.

 

Thi sis a little old but might help http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?282928-CCTV-Advice-needed-please!!!


Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

If my advice helps you, click the star icon at the bottom of my post and feel free to say thanks

:D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi

 

It would be useful if you could actually give us a better brief to these allegations if possible.

 

For the Disciplinary Hearing:

 

* You have a Right to be Accompanied by either a Work Colleague or Union Representative.

* You should be given a copies of all the evidence to be used at the Hearing.

* You should be informed of any witnesses and be able to request any witnesses you may wish to attend.

 

Please have a look at the ACAS Link: www.acas.org.uk/

 

These PDFs may be of use:


How to Upload Documents/Images on CAG - **INSTRUCTIONS CLICK HERE**

FORUM RULES - Please ensure to read these before posting **FORUM RULES CLICK HERE**

I cannot give any advice by PM - If you provide a link to your Thread then I will be happy to offer advice there.

I advise to the best of my ability, but I am not a qualified professional, benefits lawyer nor Welfare Rights Adviser.

Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes renegadeimp, recently my friend found out from the ICO that the company have not registered or notified ICO about their CCTV system. They could be violating the DPA1998 section 17. Also the ICO advised my friend to give the company a Subject Access Request (SAR) stating his rights under Data Protection Act 1998 Section 7(1) to obtain the copy of the footage as proof of the breach of DPA.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, if they didnt register with the ICO, then theres no much hope of them complying with a SAR. :(

 

They also cannot have CCTV in a locker room where people get undressed. Thats a big no-no. If it was a locker room just for putting coats in, then yes they can. If it involves undressing or changing, then nope.


Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

If my advice helps you, click the star icon at the bottom of my post and feel free to say thanks

:D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi

 

renegadeimp makes a valid point on the locker room especially if its purpose is for changing clothes i.e. from normal to work and vice versa and you have to undress a big no no

 

Could you please clarify the locker rooms use for us?

 

I would also request a copy of that cctv footage and a copy of their CCTV Policy and Procedure.


How to Upload Documents/Images on CAG - **INSTRUCTIONS CLICK HERE**

FORUM RULES - Please ensure to read these before posting **FORUM RULES CLICK HERE**

I cannot give any advice by PM - If you provide a link to your Thread then I will be happy to offer advice there.

I advise to the best of my ability, but I am not a qualified professional, benefits lawyer nor Welfare Rights Adviser.

Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi stu007,

My friend had been sick for one working week (no SSP paid but they gave him 1 day holiday pay since the New Year's day fell inside that week). When he came back to work night shifts, he noticed that the manager and supervisors are giving him more jobs to do than usual. He did not take notice of that. He sent an e-mail to the company asking why he was not processed for SSP and why a day of holiday was taken from him while he was sick for one week. No answer to the e-mail. A day after he sent the e-mail, he did not knew that an old CCTV camera at their locker room was reactivated (offline for about 3 years) to monitor him at night while on shift. Two nights he was being watched and on the morning of the 2nd night shift he was sent home on verbal suspension and instructed to come back the following day at the manager's office.

The next day the manager handed him the suspension letter dated on that same day with the allegations for gross misconduct on grounds of sleeping while clocked in, extended use of mobile phone, and eating in the work area which is not allowed.

They informed him that they have gathered evidences, witness statements, etc and that they are ready to conduct the disciplinary meeting if he agreeable. He was told that he is entitled to a companion during the meeting.

Feeling that they are keen to dismiss him, he declined the proposed disciplinary meeting and told them that he need to seek advise and contact his union (no union in the company). When they learned that he is a union member, they asked him out of the office for a few minutes. when they called him back in, they said that he had raised the stakes and they hired a company to handle the disciplinary meeting. Last monday they sent him another notice of the disciplinary hearing with the name of the third party that will conduct it. They asked him to attend any of the days they have set that week. My friend reasoned out that he cannot attend the meeting unless he has copies of evidences against him and witness statements they have.

They sent him the copies of evidences (apart from the CCTV footage) and mentioned that they are going to use the CCTV footage as evidence during the hearing and sent another notice of the Disciplinary meeting two days ahead. My friend told them that he wants a copy of the footage as well so he can prepare his defence. Hearing this, they said that they might go on with the meeting without him present. Since my friend had asked advice from ACAS, he told the manager that he cannot go to the meeting on a days notice and incomplete set of evidences against him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi renegadeimp,

He was also advised to submit a request for assessment of the company by the ICO. If they are found to have breached the DPA1998 and violated the rights of the subject on the footage, then they might not be allowed to use that illegally obtained footage as evidence. He could even be entitled for a compensation for suffering distress. They even asked some people to view the footage and made witness statements out of it. Another possible violationof the disclosure and privacy under the DPA and human rights act.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi

 

Insist on being provided with a copy of the CCTV Footage and if this is declined you require a full explanation as to why and under what Act of Parliment/legislation/policy and to be provided with copies of those documents and that you require a full copy of the companies CCTV Policy and Procedure.

 

Please Do Not let them know that you have been speaking to the ICO keep this one to yourself for the moment but (if you wanted to as this is a Disciplinary you could also ask for a copy of their Whistleblowing Policy only a suggestion and my opinion only)

Edited by stu007

How to Upload Documents/Images on CAG - **INSTRUCTIONS CLICK HERE**

FORUM RULES - Please ensure to read these before posting **FORUM RULES CLICK HERE**

I cannot give any advice by PM - If you provide a link to your Thread then I will be happy to offer advice there.

I advise to the best of my ability, but I am not a qualified professional, benefits lawyer nor Welfare Rights Adviser.

Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi stu007,

One of the guys does take off his trousers in there to change from norm to work and vice versa. And yes, when he requested a copy of the footage stating the SAR and DPA and ICO plus a copy of the company CCTV Policy on its use and operation(which obviously they don't have and have not included in the induction of new employee) they said that they have some more evidences to look at. He told them that he will wait for the footage as per SAR to make preparations for his defense. Do you think my friend should ask the ICO to come in with the assessment ASAP so the footage could be secured before they get rid of it? Also the ICO should find out their DPA contraventions since the company is probably confused on what to face right now (the ICO/DPA violation or the Human Rights case against my friend). Anyhow, with the treatment that he got from the company, he just wanted out of there as ASAP but they need to learn their lesson and pay the price for their mis-management. He is requesting for legal advice from anyone concerned within the group.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi

 

I can see what you are saying but you need to focus on the Disciplinary hearing and that second as the ICO may not get involved in an individual case unless it is so serious so you must be prepared for that.

 

This is the reason I say you need to concentrate on the Disciplinary.


How to Upload Documents/Images on CAG - **INSTRUCTIONS CLICK HERE**

FORUM RULES - Please ensure to read these before posting **FORUM RULES CLICK HERE**

I cannot give any advice by PM - If you provide a link to your Thread then I will be happy to offer advice there.

I advise to the best of my ability, but I am not a qualified professional, benefits lawyer nor Welfare Rights Adviser.

Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In fairness, this does not sound like a model employee....we are all focussing on cameras (bad) and nto what the cameras caught him doing (also bad.)

 

You could put a lot of effort here into getting him off on a technicality to find he is watched like a hawk in person and gone a month later. do you believe it to be worth the effort?

 

Do you also want to be "the trouble maker who helped him get off"? Companies are small places.

 

I realise this does not address justice etc etc. Just think of your own position.


Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Did he sleep while clocked in, did he eat in a restricted area and did he use a mobile excessivley? yes the cctv shouldnt have been used but if you do nothing wrong it isnt a problem


If I have been of any help, please click on my star and let me know, thank you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am not an expert on this, but I am not sure the whole data protection stuff will save him. Sleeping while clocked in is misconduct whether or not there was a breach of the DPA. I am unclear why he was sleeping/eating/using his phone in the locker room. In any event, reasonable use of CCTV cameras to monitor employees is not a breach of the DPA. Your friend knew there was a CCTV camera in there for years so it can't have been a complete shock.

 

It sounds like your friend has not done himself any favours by refusing to attend meetings and getting the company to hire an outside firm. When you say "he just wanted out of there as ASAP but they need to learn their lesson and pay the price for their mis-management." that makes it sound even worse. You haven't given full details so I do not want to judge him, but based on what has been posted so far it sounds like he might be trying to retailiate and damage the company to cover his misconduct - in which case the "outrage" at the CCTV camera is fake. I think your friend might be better focussing on his conduct. Particularly, whether it was bad enough to constitute gross misconduct justifying immediate dismissal. Trying to be aggressive and retaliatory won't get him anywhere.


PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING

EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Emmzzi,

My friend admits letting himself down. He is not denying that he did those things. He had just been from sickness and since the company does not have a contractual sick pay he went back to work while still on painkillers. He had seen the GP even a week before he got sick complaining about the back pain. If you are a family person, you would bear the pain and go to work to pay your bills. Knowing that the locker room was private in the workplace, he would occassionally lie down to ease the back pain. When he was sent home after being watched for two consecutive days, the management did not even show any concern about his health or condition. Based on the witness statements that they have given to him, they have been discussing about him and his recent performance behing his back. They have not tried to informally resolve it first with him.

 

On use of phone (his personal mobile), he remembers taking some calls expecting that he has privacy inside that room.

 

On eating at prohibited areas, doing night shift (which was about -4 deg. Celsius). He thought that as long as he cleans the table and dispose of waste properly, that would not be an issue. Even his supervisor was found guilty of eating in that area in the past (during Client site inspection and audit with the management team) but they just let it go and reminded him not to do it again. Why now it allegedly a gross misconduct for my friend? Could they be singling him out?

 

By the way even if he is standing, sitting, or lying down, he has his radio with him all the time ready to answer calls from production supervisors. He works as a maintenance staff and had never had a verbal warning, written warning or case of misconduct for 3 years or even his previous employment. They will find it in the footage that whenever they call him on the his radio, he would get up and attend to their call. Whatever he did in the locker room was done in good faith that he had his privacy in their and he make sures that he cleans his mess of food to prevent cross contamination issues.

 

Just still wondering why they were keen to require him to attend the disciplinary even knowing that they have not given him copies of evidences for him to defend himself. And they have mentioned ACAS procedure when they sent him home and handed the written suspension letter the following day but obviously they are not following them.

 

Hope this gives light to some of the doubts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello Steampowerd,

Your questions on sleeping/eating/using phone are answered on the reply to Emmzii.

He is not refusing to attend the hearing, he just thinks he needs all the evidences and documents he is entitled to have to defend himself before going to the meeting. The manager have been pushing for a meeting without giving him a chance to informally resolve it first. He wanted him to attend the hearing even though they have not given him copies of evidences to prepare jis defense.

Recently, when he sent a letter about Subject Access Request for the footage, they have not got back on him about the disciplinary meeting and the manager said that they are looking further at some of the evidences.

My friend is just worried by the fact that they have been showing the footage to some supervisors and managers and allowed them to write their witness statement based from the footage shown to them. If these things happened to you, would you feel that it is fair. It is easy for us to comment or condemn a person but if we are in his shoes, maybe we will look at it differently. One man against a group (a company to be honest) is not an easy battle for him. That is why he wants out of that company as soon as possible. When they wanted people out in the past, they would just intimidate them their limit. Sad thing this is happening to my friend. He admits doing some of the allegations but are they dealing with the issue objectively, constructively, morally, and lastly legally? Let us uphold justice for all parties and for those who really deserve it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello assisted blonde,

I believe that there things we do in private life that we won't show in the public eye. Take for example sleeping undressed, putting facial cream at night, etc. The things that they found him doing in the locker room was done in good faith that he has his privacy in there, and that those activities don't pose a threat to anyone or the company operations. He does not think of it as some sort of criminal activity that needed secret, intrusive, and excessive monitoring. A quiet word from the manager about his issues with him could have resolved everything staight away. Everybody makes mistakes at some point in their life and everybody deserves a second chance. But if one's dignity, privacy, and human self-worth have been ignored just to get what they wanted seem not a good way to manage workers. Can we blame him if he wanted justice, especially in a legal point of view? And besides, it looked like that they have already condemned him even before they have suspended him by the way things are happening. They have probably the right to watch their people on the CCTV but do they really need to do that to correct some issues and concerns with workers?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi stu007,

I totally agree with you stu, at the moment he is very focused on the disciplinary hearing. He is waiting for the copy CCTV footage evidence and the company policy on CCTV operation and their notice of the hearing.

So far the ICO inquiry was only for the purpose of legality on how to request for the footage. He had not asked the ICO to request for an assessment even though he knew that they have not registered their CCTV system which is a legal violation of the DPA. He even did not question the company about the legality of the disclosure they have done about their Data (CCTV footage) on him to unauthorised people.

He aims to clear his name on these allegations (whether they really constitute a gross misconduct) and resolve the issues for the benefit of both parties involved in a just and peaceful way. He hopes that the company management is mature enough to deal with him objectively and constructively.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree that the use of CCTV was incorrect but having said that regardless he shouldnt have been sleeping while at work, eating in an incorrect place or using his phone excessvley, prehaps the company have gone about things the wrong way but it dosnt really take away from the fact that he was in the wrong, he may have had a bad back, but if he was too ill to work than he shouldnt have been there. yep we all do daft things and its not always construed as misconduct but then again sometimes it is.Although there may be legal issues about the obtaining of the evidence (CCTV) the fact remains that he is guilty of the allegations, I would be more inclined to defend those than go in all guns blazing on what the company has done wrong if i wanted to keep my job until I found another one.I think that there are times when people get too hung up on legalities, their "rights" etc and forget the bigger picture, in other words you are paid a salary to do a job and follow company rules, if you dont do the job or follow the rules why should they continue to employ you? might sound harsh but I cannot see any real defence for his actions rather than stupidity and thinking he could get away with it.i do ageree with an earlier post in that even if he wins this they are likely to be monitering him so closley tha it wont be long before they find another reason to get rid and one that might stick.


If I have been of any help, please click on my star and let me know, thank you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm tempted to agree with AB here. Lying down on your back to relieve stress or pain os one thing. Falling asleep is completely another. Also, regarding eating/using a phone, if your employment conditions tell you not to do it, then you don't do it. Regardless of if other people have done it in the past.

 

I think the issue here is we are trying to combine non compliance of company procedures with the legal issue of CCTV> They are two seperate things. From the info we have, it seems that the person in question would have been content to still break company procedure if the CCTV had been removed. It might sound harsh, but if this is right, then the company are right to follow through with disciplinary procedures. The CCTV issue can be taken up seperately.


Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

If my advice helps you, click the star icon at the bottom of my post and feel free to say thanks

:D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,

 

I totally understand that your friend thinks it was OK to eat and make short personal phone calls. At worst these are minor transgressions. Sleeping while on the clock is less forgivable - I am not sure how he could answer radio calls while sleeping - but perhaps understandable in light of the medical issues.

 

I agree with assisted blonde. I don't think this data protection stuff is getting you anywhere and is rubbing people up the wrong way. Unless he plans to deny that he was sleeping/eating/using his phone I am not sure why he would need the footage to defend himself - he either did those things or he did not. What does he think he will achieve by seeing the footage?

 

You say that "they have been discussing about him and his recent performance behing his back. They have not tried to informally resolve it first with him.". Based on your earlier post it sounds like they did try to resolve it with a meeting, which has now become a fairly serious formal affair. Personally I would be inclined to just accept a warning and move on. Just my two cents, good luck with this.


PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING

EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My friend admits doing them, no question about that against company rules and standards. But how would you treat a company who ignores the law, no respect for human dignity and privacy, and leaves their management to intimidate, bully and harass people that they dislike at work. They don't even take notice of my friend's loyalty of coming to work at least one hour every night without pay just to get ahead of his job. When they have projects on-going at the premises, he covers the production maintenance alone while his collegues deal with the project works. He does rest/lie down sometimes but he knows he has got to squeeze in his maintenance works between company break times and before and after production schedules to tender to maintenance tasks. But it is hard to influence people's thinking anyway, we are all entitled to our own opinion. At the end of the day, let us just accept the fact that we are only numbers in the company. Gone are the days when companies regard people as assets. And worker's loyalty and service to the company will all be forgotten with one or two misconduct committed. He just have to learn his lesson from these things and move on with his life.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

See, now you are starting to sidetrack. You say no respect for dignity and privacy, but what do the official rules state for the employment?

 

He fell asleep/ate etc when he knew he wasn't allowed to. Legally, the employer could take action against him for this.

 

I'm in agreement with your last statement though. Just a side note, if you want to follow up the privacy issue, it would be best if your friend had a discussion with the ICO and see what the EXACT rules are that govern this situation.


Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

If my advice helps you, click the star icon at the bottom of my post and feel free to say thanks

:D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even though the company goes easy on him along the process or drops the idea of dismissing him, he is decided to leave peacefully anyway. If they have done him wrong or if they have acted maliciously, then he will just let them deal with their on guilt and conscience. He just hopes that next time, they would have the objectiveness and maturity to deal with worker's issues in the most moral, humane, and legal way possible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
My friend admits doing them, no question about that against company rules and standards. But how would you treat a company who ignores the law, no respect for human dignity and privacy, and leaves their management to intimidate, bully and harass people that they dislike at work.
Mountain out of a mole hill. Human dignity and privacy for what - doing what you are supposed to do while on the clock? It is reasonable for employers to want to know that their staff are doing during workoing hours so I am unconvinced that the employer is in breach of the law. They suspected staff were doing things they shouldn't, so they turned on the CCTV and it turns out they were right!
They don't even take notice of my friend's loyalty of coming to work at least one hour every night without pay just to get ahead of his job.

You are making assumptions here. You do not know what the employer would have done because your friend refused to attend the meeting. If he attended the meeting when he was asked he may well simply have been thanked for all his hard work and asked not to use his phone while on the clock. The employer may well have accepted the explanation of his medical condition but you haven't given them a chance to do so.

 

Nothing in your posts suggests that your employer wanted to dismiss your friend (unless he has already received a bunch of warnings). I really do think that your friend's aggressive attitude has made this incident so much worse than it needed to be. If your friend still wants to work there this train wreck can probably still be salvaged if your friend apologises, goes to the meeting, admits to the mistakes, points out that the mistakes were minor, explains he always had the radio with him and explains the medical condition. Life is so much easier if you own up to your mistakes and cooperate with people.


PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING

EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    No registered users viewing this page.


  • Have we helped you ...?


×
×
  • Create New...