Court summoning

[MathewC]

Hi there,

 

I have been given a letter which is summoning to court on the 4th of Feb 2013 for the following:

 

That I travelled on the railway between Nuneaton and Birmingham [VIA Stafford] without a valid ticket or pay the fare due before travelling on a train.

 

Contrary to Byelaw 18.1 of Railway Byelaws made under Section 219 of the Transport act 2000 by The Strategic Rail Authority and confirmed by section 46 )4_ Railways Act 2005 and Schedule 9 of the 2005 Act.

 

Now the evidence supplied in the document is for another person and the reference numbers do not match on the scanned tickets given. Neither was I given the chance to pay the fare on the train.

 

In the statement

I was asked "if I had means to buy a ticket today"

My Reply: "Yes"

 

but was not given the chance to buy one, he carried on with questioning me instead.

 

I'm more then happy to pay the fine of the ticket £33.50 and prosecution costs of £105.00 but the fact I was not given the chance to allow to pay nor the evidence given is even my name.

 

Finally - When I was stopped another bloke who travelled on the exact same trains as me also had no valid ticket but managed to get away with nothing. The inspector didn't take his details down or anything, This inspector seemed like he was out to get me and not the other passenger. Now All i know about this passenger is that he works at Virgin Media in Wolvs.

 

I also have proof that I always pay for tickets and have roughly over 30 odd tickets proving I have a return ticket from NUN to BHM either paying via ticket machine or on the train itself. As with I also have a ticket showing I went NUN - RUGBY - BHM which also shows I have paid a different route before also.

 

Was wondering where I stand?

 

I currently work part time in Retail, would this effect my job also? I'm currently also a full time student.

 

Any help would be grateful.

 

All the best.

[honeybee13]

Hi there,

 

I have been given a letter which is summoning to court on the 4th of Feb 2013 for the following:

 

That I travelled on the railway between Nuneaton and Birmingham [VIA Stafford] without a valid ticket or pay the fare due before travelling on a train.

 

Contrary to Byelaw 18.1 of Railway Byelaws made under Section 219 of the Transport act 2000 by The Strategic Rail Authority and confirmed by section 46 )4_ Railways Act 2005 and Schedule 9 of the 2005 Act.

 

Now the evidence supplied in the document is for another person and the reference numbers do not match on the scanned tickets given. Neither was I given the chance to pay the fare on the train.

 

In the statement

I was asked "if I had means to buy a ticket today"

My Reply: "Yes"

 

but was not given the chance to buy one, he carried on with questioning me instead.

 

I'm more then happy to pay the fine of the ticket £33.50 and prosecution costs of £105.00 but the fact I was not given the chance to allow to pay nor the evidence given is even my name.

 

Finally - When I was stopped another bloke who travelled on the exact same trains as me also had no valid ticket but managed to get away with nothing. The inspector didn't take his details down or anything, This inspector seemed like he was out to get me and not the other passenger. Now All i know about this passenger is that he works at Virgin Media in Wolvs.

 

I also have proof that I always pay for tickets and have roughly over 30 odd tickets proving I have a return ticket from NUN to BHM either paying via ticket machine or on the train itself. As with I also have a ticket showing I went NUN - RUGBY - BHM which also shows I have paid a different route before also.

 

Was wondering where I stand?

 

I currently work part time in Retail, would this effect my job also? I'm currently also a full time student.

 

Any help would be grateful.

 

All the best.

 

Hello and welcome to CAG.

 

I expect the forum guys will be along later with advice for you. Please bear with us until they're able to get here.

 

My best, HB

[MathewC]

Hi there,

 

Thank you.

 

I've drafted a letter up, is anyone able to proof read this and help me further? I really just want to settle this out of court, and pay the outstanding fees without any court..

 

REF: [Number]

 

Dear [name edited]

 

I’m writing to you regarding receiving a letter of summons to answer the following information;

 

• That you on 02/09/2012, were on the railway, having travelled on the railway between Nuneaton and Birmingham New Street [Via Stafford], and failed to obtain a ticket or pay the fare due before travelling on a train

 

• Contrary to Byelaw 18.1 of Railway Byelaws made under Section 219 of the Transport Act 2000 by The Strategic Rail Authority and confirmed by Section 46 (4) Railways Act 2005 and Schedule 9 of the 2005 Act.

 

I wish to settle this matter out of court and at no point did I have any intention of committing fare evasion, and I hope you can appreciate that I fully cooperated with the railway staff that questioned me.

 

Furthermore I frequently travelled from Nuneaton to Birmingham and still retain my rail tickets as evidence of paying my fares either my ticket machines, staffed booths or directly on the train.

 

I now realize that I should always ensure I buy my tickets at the rail stations and not on the train and since the incident I have ensured that I am fully aware that I require a ticket before stepping onto any train or platform.

 

Please let me know the appropriate arrangements to fulfill the outstanding fare and admiration charges outstanding.

 

 

Signed

 

 

 

[Full Name]

Edited January 23, 2013 by honeybee13
Removing staff name, no need for it as you've removed yours.

[firstclassx]

You have still committed an offence (as specified in a letter).

 

If you walk past a ticket office or machine, and board a train, regardless of previous habits or reasons, you still commit an offence.

 

London Midland are well within their rights to prosecute you.

 

Based on typical procedures, (but nothing legally binding), I would say they will have written to you prior to you receiving the summons, and you have failed to respond for whatever reason.

[BazzaS]

Hi there,

 

I have been given a letter which is summoning to court on the 4th of Feb 2013 for the following:

 

That I travelled on the railway between Nuneaton and Birmingham [VIA Stafford] without a valid ticket or pay the fare due before travelling on a train.

 

Contrary to Byelaw 18.1 of Railway Byelaws made under Section 219 of the Transport act 2000 by The Strategic Rail Authority and confirmed by section 46 )4_ Railways Act 2005 and Schedule 9 of the 2005 Act.

 

Now the evidence supplied in the document is for another person and the reference numbers do not match on the scanned tickets given. Neither was I given the chance to pay the fare on the train.

 

In the statement

I was asked "if I had means to buy a ticket today"

My Reply: "Yes"

 

but was not given the chance to buy one, he carried on with questioning me instead.

 

I'm more then happy to pay the fine of the ticket £33.50 and prosecution costs of £105.00 but the fact I was not given the chance to allow to pay nor the evidence given is even my name.

 

Finally - When I was stopped another bloke who travelled on the exact same trains as me also had no valid ticket but managed to get away with nothing. The inspector didn't take his details down or anything, This inspector seemed like he was out to get me and not the other passenger. Now All i know about this passenger is that he works at Virgin Media in Wolvs.

 

I also have proof that I always pay for tickets and have roughly over 30 odd tickets proving I have a return ticket from NUN to BHM either paying via ticket machine or on the train itself. As with I also have a ticket showing I went NUN - RUGBY - BHM which also shows I have paid a different route before also.

 

Was wondering where I stand?

 

I currently work part time in Retail, would this effect my job also? I'm currently also a full time student.

 

Any help would be grateful.

 

All the best.

 

When you were stopped, did you have a valid ticket?.

 

"I also have proof that I always pay for tickets" : but it seems that on this occaision you hadn't, which sort of contradicts "I always pay"?.

 

"Do you have the means to pay" is a bit of a double bind .... if you admit you had means to pay and hadn't paid : this could be used to show you could have paid but chose not to. If you admit you don't have means to pay ; again could be used to show you were intending to travel without paying. It is better not to answer this "yes" or "no" but : "I'd like to pay, and can pay by ......." ... even better if "I'd like to pay, and haven't been able to pay before now as there were no ticket facilities at my boarding station"!

 

18(1) : In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.

 

18(3) : No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:

(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey; or

(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or

(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

 

If you had had the opportunity to pay before boarding, at a ticket office, a ticket machine (or even a 'permit to travel' machine), you can't avail yourself of a defence using 18(3), unless there was a notice as in 18(3)ii, or you were given permission as in 18(3)iii

 

If you boarded the train without a valid ticket, the fact(s) that :

i) You later bought a ticket, or you offered to buy one when challenged, or

ii) You feel a different passenger was treated more leniently

will not prevent them prosecuting you under 18.1.

 

You might be able to persuade them to withdraw the summons, even "on the courtroom steps" (to borrow a phrase from one of the "industry experts" who posts here, but they aren't obliged to do so.

[MathewC]

Yes this is due to if not buying via machine i bought on the train thus always buying my tickets one way or another. However I do have proof I have valid tickets in the past to and from work throughout the previous year. Should I supply these in my letter?

When you were stopped, did you have a valid ticket?.

 

"I also have proof that I always pay for tickets" : but it seems that on this occaision you hadn't, which sort of contradicts "I always pay"?.

 

"Do you have the means to pay" is a bit of a double bind .... if you admit you had means to pay and hadn't paid : this could be used to show you could have paid but chose not to. If you admit you don't have means to pay ; again could be used to show you were intending to travel without paying. It is better not to answer this "yes" or "no" but : "I'd like to pay, and can pay by ......." ... even better if "I'd like to pay, and haven't been able to pay before now as there were no ticket facilities at my boarding station"!

 

18(1) : In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.

 

18(3) : No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:

(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey; or

(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or

(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

 

If you had had the opportunity to pay before boarding, at a ticket office, a ticket machine (or even a 'permit to travel' machine), you can't avail yourself of a defence using 18(3), unless there was a notice as in 18(3)ii, or you were given permission as in 18(3)iii

 

If you boarded the train without a valid ticket, the fact(s) that :

i) You later bought a ticket, or you offered to buy one when challenged, or

ii) You feel a different passenger was treated more leniently

will not prevent them prosecuting you under 18.1.

 

You might be able to persuade them to withdraw the summons, even "on the courtroom steps" (to borrow a phrase from one of the "industry experts" who posts here, but they aren't obliged to do so.

I was expecting to be able to pay on the train, like I have done many times when not buying a ticket via machines. I said to the inspector when he asked for my ticket if I could buy one, he declined and issued me with an official warning instead and followed protocol on forms and so on.

 

I do feel like another passenger was treated more leniently but how can I prove this? Considering I have no way to contact this member of public? As with where do I stand with the scanned train tickets and personal details (the slip which states name, dob, phone number, address) is NOT mine. They have supplied me with false evidence obviously?

 

I wish to try and withdraw the summons, Am I to increase the fee's for this or keep to the amount they have stated I'm expected to pay? Who do i Contact?

 

 

 

You have still committed an offence (as specified in a letter).

 

If you walk past a ticket office or machine, and board a train, regardless of previous habits or reasons, you still commit an offence.

 

London Midland are well within their rights to prosecute you.

 

Based on typical procedures, (but nothing legally binding), I would say they will have written to you prior to you receiving the summons, and you have failed to respond for whatever reason.

Im not denying I've commited an offence, and have said im happy to pay.

 

They have not written to me, only once to say I'll be hearing from the area manager guy, that's all. Then this out of the blue.

 

 

Also will this go on my CRB and would it effect my job in Retail?

Edited January 23, 2013 by MathewC

[lookinforinfo]

No one appears to have picked up on your statement Now the evidence supplied in the document is for another person and the reference numbers do not match on the scanned tickets given.

 

If the summons is in a different name to that of yourself then does that mean you are off the hook? I don't understand about the scanned tickets not matching as I was under the impression that you had no ticket.

[firstclassx]

Won't appear on a normal CRB check, but if your contract of employment obliges you to inform the employer of convictions, and you lie or neglect to do so, you could be dismissed or disciplined.

 

If applying for certain jobs involving young or vulnerable people, (army/police/care home/doctor/solicitor etc), it may appear on an enhanced disclosure.

 

 

In addition, things like applying for an ESTA require you to be completely honest and declare any convictions.

[honeybee13]

No one appears to have picked up on your statement Now the evidence supplied in the document is for another person and the reference numbers do not match on the scanned tickets given.

 

If the summons is in a different name to that of yourself then does that mean you are off the hook? I don't understand about the scanned tickets not matching as I was under the impression that you had no ticket.

 

That's a good point, lookin. It would be good if one of the gurus confirmed, but I imagine it's worth ringing about this.

 

Matthew, is the letter from the court please?

 

HB

[MathewC]

No one appears to have picked up on your statement Now the evidence supplied in the document is for another person and the reference numbers do not match on the scanned tickets given.

 

If the summons is in a different name to that of yourself then does that mean you are off the hook? I don't understand about the scanned tickets not matching as I was under the impression that you had no ticket.

There is a sheet which has three rail tickets scanned onto it, photocopied. Which has a different name on to mine, as with address. Also the train tickets are from coventry to another location. Not from the location stated in the letter from the courts.

 

Won't appear on a normal CRB check, but if your contract of employment obliges you to inform the employer of convictions, and you lie or neglect to do so, you could be dismissed or disciplined.

 

If applying for certain jobs involving young or vulnerable people, (army/police/care home/doctor/solicitor etc), it may appear on an enhanced disclosure.

 

 

In addition, things like applying for an ESTA require you to be completely honest and declare any convictions.

So I should inform my employer no matter what really? Better be safe then sorry?

 

That's a good point, lookin. It would be good if one of the gurus confirmed, but I imagine it's worth ringing about this.

 

Matthew, is the letter from the court please?

 

HB

Yes, It's from the courts. Summoning me on the 4th

[BazzaS]

There is a sheet which has three rail tickets scanned onto it, photocopied. Which has a different name on to mine, as with address. Also the train tickets are from coventry to another location. Not from the location stated in the letter from the courts.

 

 

So I should inform my employer no matter what really? Better be safe then sorry?

 

 

Yes, It's from the courts. Summoning me on the 4th

 

It seems odd that the "summons from the court" enclosed "evidence from the TOC".

 

If you were caught on a train without a ticket, and plead not guilty, expect the case to be adjourned to a date when the TOC will provide the evidence against you.

You could take a chance that they've "misfiled" the evidence but I wouldn't rely on it.

 

If they've filed Person B 's evidence with your file, what are the odds that once they realise, it will be a straightforward "cross-over" and they 'll go to Person B's file to see if your evidence is there.

 

I've posted earlier in the thread and can only reiterate:

1) Just because you may have been allowed to buy a ticket on the train in the past doesn't mean you weren't commiting a breach of Byelaw, and isn't a defence.

2) Just because you feel another passenger was treated differently or more leniently doesn't mean (even IF you could find / identify them) that you have a defence.

3) you can ask the TOC for an out of court settlement but they don't have to agree : you can't make them.

 

 

How any other passenger was treated will be of no interest to the Magistrates regarding guilty or not.

The fact that you may have bought tickets on the train in the past will be of no interest to the Magistrates regarding guilty or not.

The fact that you have asked the TOC for an administrative settlement out of court will be of no interest to the Magistrates regarding guilty or not.

 

These matters may count regarding mitigation if you are found (or plead) guilty, but regarding if you are guilty of breaching Bylaw 18(1), if you plead not guilty, the Court will consider if you boarded a train without a ticket, and if you have one or more of the statutory defences listed at 18(3).

They cannot regard the other points in considering guilt or not, only later, (if found or plead : guilty) as mitigation.

 

You need not tell your employer anything until found (or plead) guilty.

If found guilty (by plea or conviction) you may be required to inform your employer (what does your contract of employment say?).

Even if not obliged to inform them , in some circumstances it is worth doing so (if you feel it would be something that you might later be accused of hiding it when you should have revealed it, it may be worth having discussed it with a sympathetic manager or HR : if only to protect yourself).

Is your job one where you need a standard CRB or an enhanced disclosure, or where your contract of employment obliges you to inform your employer?

[Old-CodJA]

I think Bazza has summarised this matter perfectly.

[BazzaS]

I think Bazza has summarised this matter perfectly.

 

Thanks, OC.

 

I don't want to sound like an acolyte, but I started with a basic knowledge of the law, what I'd researched, and then have learnt lots from the "industry experts" : yourself included.

 

If that then means that I can answer some of the queries, freeing you and the other experts up to answer other posts, correct me if I blunder, or pass an approving comment as confirmation when I've hit the nail on the head : so much the better!.

[MathewC]

Do they not normally supply evidence from TOC then? I've got no idea on this. The evidence was meant to be the following (but obviously its someone else's as the locations and personal data dont match)

• Name & Address (Inc Contact details)
  
• Copy of Tickets given for "free travel to location"
  

 

 

It seems odd that the "summons from the court" enclosed "evidence from the TOC".

 

If you were caught on a train without a ticket, and plead not guilty, expect the case to be adjourned to a date when the TOC will provide the evidence against you.

You could take a chance that they've "misfiled" the evidence but I wouldn't rely on it.

 

If they've filed Person B 's evidence with your file, what are the odds that once they realise, it will be a straightforward "cross-over" and they 'll go to Person B's file to see if your evidence is there.

 

I've posted earlier in the thread and can only reiterate:

1) Just because you may have been allowed to buy a ticket on the train in the past doesn't mean you weren't commiting a breach of Byelaw, and isn't a defence.

2) Just because you feel another passenger was treated differently or more leniently doesn't mean (even IF you could find / identify them) that you have a defence.

3) you can ask the TOC for an out of court settlement but they don't have to agree : you can't make them.

 

 

How any other passenger was treated will be of no interest to the Magistrates regarding guilty or not.

The fact that you may have bought tickets on the train in the past will be of no interest to the Magistrates regarding guilty or not.

The fact that you have asked the TOC for an administrative settlement out of court will be of no interest to the Magistrates regarding guilty or not.

 

These matters may count regarding mitigation if you are found (or plead) guilty, but regarding if you are guilty of breaching Bylaw 18(1), if you plead not guilty, the Court will consider if you boarded a train without a ticket, and if you have one or more of the statutory defences listed at 18(3).

They cannot regard the other points in considering guilt or not, only later, (if found or plead : guilty) as mitigation.

 

You need not tell your employer anything until found (or plead) guilty.

If found guilty (by plea or conviction) you may be required to inform your employer (what does your contract of employment say?).

Even if not obliged to inform them , in some circumstances it is worth doing so (if you feel it would be something that you might later be accused of hiding it when you should have revealed it, it may be worth having discussed it with a sympathetic manager or HR : if only to protect yourself).

Is your job one where you need a standard CRB or an enhanced disclosure, or where your contract of employment obliges you to inform your employer?

 

How would I go about trying to settle this out of court? Who do i contact? The prosecutor? And how would I go about doing this, obviously I need to contact them is it via email, letter, phone?

[BazzaS]

Do they not normally supply evidence from TOC then? I've got no idea on this. The evidence was meant to be the following (but obviously its someone else's as the locations and personal data dont match)

• Name & Address (Inc Contact details)
  
• Copy of Tickets given for "free travel to location"
  

 

 

 

 

How would I go about trying to settle this out of court? Who do i contact? The prosecutor? And how would I go about doing this, obviously I need to contact them is it via email, letter, phone?

 

Usually, the TOC writes to you stating they are considering prosecution, and asking for your explanation. At that point, you need to decide if you have committed the offence.

If someone feels they are not guilty (especially if on seeking advice they aren't the only person who sees it that way!) then they should answer accordingly.

 

If they feel that they didn't have a defence and wish to avoid court, it is worth:

a) answering truthfully (any fibs may harden their resolve to prosecute). One doesn't have to "tell the whole truth", as sometimes it is worth not focusing on some points, but don't lie!

b) make any points in mitigation. However, saying "the RPI was surly" or "I was victimised" rarely helps ....

c) make an apology, and ask if they would consider settling outside of court.

 

There is no "magic formula" or "template letter" ; it is more likely to succeed if it is perceived as heartfelt.

I imagine that if they read the 20th "standard template letter" of the day that it is less likely to succeed than an honest, apologetic, well written letter.

Even so, they don't have to not summons you : they can choose to continue with a prosecution.

 

I don't know why you didn't receive a letter or why the inspector chose to report you for consideration of prosecution. I wasn't there to comment, but RPI's who post on this forum have posted on previous threads that if the transgressor fails "the attitude test" then their report may be phrased in such a way as to make the Prosecutions Office less likely to consider alternatives to prosecution.

It is possible they sent a letter and you didn't receive it, but given they don't have to write to you I wouldn't dwell on that, because:

 

Even if you haven't had a letter asking for your side of events, you can write to the Prosecutions Office asking them to consider alternatives, or even (if that fails) approach the Prosecutor on the day ; I'd imagine that the likelyhood of them discontinuing decreases the closer it gets to your Court appearance, and they don't have to discontinue - but there is nothing stopping you trying.

 

If you did persuade them to discontinue, by means other than in writing, ensure you get confirmation in writing, unless it is actually at Court and you are there to hear the Prosecutor ask for the summons to be withdrawn, in court.

Edited January 24, 2013 by BazzaS