Welcome/IND Claim 2004 debt - sent 2007 statements & paperwork!!

[sl33pyhead]

Hi all,

 

First post here, although a long time reader. Hopefully some of you will be able to offer some advice.

 

I've received a Northampton CCBC Claim form. The claimant is listed as Welcome Financial Services Limited, and the solicitor is Hegarty LLP - always lots of threads about these people on here!

 

I immediately filled the acknowledgement of service online indicating my intention to defend the full claim. As per advice on these forums I then immediately retaliated with a CPR 31.14 to the solicitor and an s.77 to Welcome Finance directly for good measure.

 

My CPR 31.14 request asked for the agreement, the default notice, the termination notice, and pre-action protocol.

 

I fairly quickly received the response to the CPR 31.14 although it came from IND Ltd and not Hegarty's or Welcome. I received (a very poor) single page copy of an agreement, a default notice and covering letter, in addition to six pages worth of statements.

 

I've attached redacted scanned copies of the documents returned as part of the CPR 31.14, and also a redacted copy of the claim form showing the PoC.

 

I did not receive any termination notice or pre-action protocol documentation.

 

Some observations about this information:

 

1. Who are IND they and what is their relationship with Welcome/Hegarty and what do they have to do with the claim?

 

2. The copy of the claimed agreement is barely legible - the scan is an accurate representation of what I received in the post. Is this enough, or high enough quality - should there not be a second linked page detailing the full terms? Can someone with more knowledge than me take a look at this and check whether there is anything here which can be used as grounds for my defence?

 

3. Notice the date on the agreement - which is also listed on the response letter to the CPR 31.14 - what is interesting about it is that not only is it significantly earlier than the first entries on the statement, but I was categorically not living at the address listed on the agreement at that time and can easily prove this. I did not take any loan or other form of credit with Welcome Finance at that time.

 

4. Notice that the PPI box had been ticked on the agreement form, and from what I can decipher is listed as "Payment Protection Insurance" on the agreement form.

 

5. On the statement there appears to be some very odd transactions listed - I've redacted anything potentially personally identifiable, and why the sudden reversal of fees and interest dated mid last year?

 

6. The claim is the first and only contact I've had from Welcome Finance relating to enforcement of the claimed debt - I have categorically never received any earlier letters, telephone calls or the default notice.

 

Any advice on what my next steps are in defending this claim would be really appreciated.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Edit: See post 4 for revised attachments

Edited January 21, 2013 by sl33pyhead
Edited attachments, will replace shortly.

[sl33pyhead]

Any advice here would be really greatly appreciated! Thanks!

[AndyOrch]

sl33 you have left the account number on the P.o.C...I have unapproved.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[sl33pyhead]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]40870[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]40871[/ATTACH]

[sl33pyhead]

Thanks Andy. I've edited and re-uploaded.

[dx100uk]

is this the ONLY loan with welcome you've had?

 

have you ALL the statements?

 

prob 90% FFES + PPI+ other insurances

 

tell us a bit more about the history please

 

dx

[sl33pyhead]

Yes, its the only loan or any dealing/contact with Welcome I would have ever had.

 

All the statements they've sent through are attached in the second document, there are no more.

 

In fact this is the only paperwork I actually have at all relating to this claim - no original agreements or anything.

 

The statements seem to mainly consist of a whole load of telephone fees and various other charges.

 

I did briefly live at the address listed on the agreement form around 2007/2008 for around nine months, but definitely not in 2004,

 

categorically did not take out any agreement with them at that point in time.

 

The statement only starts in 2007, its possible I may have taken out a loan with them then, but being completely honest it is difficult to remember exactly

- had a few other things going on in life around that time...

 

The copy of the agreement they sent was very poor quality and difficult to read much at all!

 

I do find it strange that the PPI box was ticked too

- PPI is something I have never in my life taken out on a loan given I've also thought it to be a bit of a deception and not worth the money.

 

Is there anything else you'd need to know?

[dx100uk]

shame you've not time to SAR them

but do it anyway by recorded delivery might work.

 

as with all welcome statements

 

that purely fictional

 

if you woek it out carefully

they always refund fees then put them back on.

capitalisation.

 

a £2k loan still running & now £5k

 

they are having a laugh

 

ind / heggy's do thiss alot hoping people wont defend.

 

tell them you want statements from account start

 

when did you take this out?

 

it smells!!

 

the PPI/fees reclaim would wipe the debt anyhow.

 

dx

[sl33pyhead]

Well I sent a s.77 direct to Welcome after receiving the claim which was just over a week ago now and they have yet to respond. Should I also send them a SAR now too?

 

I did think the statements were slightly fishy with lots of very odd transactions on there.

 

As I mentioned above I categorically did not take out any agreement with them in 2004, but its possible I may have done around 2007/2008 given I did briefly live at the address mentioned.

 

So, other than the SAR to Welcome, what is my next cause of action. The claim was issued on 10th Jan, and I acknowledged on 12th Jan, so how much longer does that give me to file my defence?

 

At this point what should my defence hinge upon? It seems there could be a few options by the sounds of it? How would one go about counter claiming for the fees/PPI?

 

Sorry for the questions, all very new to this!

[AndyOrch]

You can request information using the CPR 31.14 if they have referred to any documentation within their particulars of Claim.

 

You have 33 days in total (5 deemed served so 28) 14 to Acknowledge Service and if defending a further 14 days to submit any defence.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[sl33pyhead]

Thanks Andy.

 

I'd already requested the information in the PoC via a CPR 31.14 - everything they (IND Ltd rather than Welcome or Hegarty) responded with was included in my two attachments. I can include a copy of my CPR31.14 request if that helps. My CPR31.14 did ask for any termination notices, but they did not send any through.

 

I've acknowledged service, so at this point looking for some guidance as to whether anything they sent via the CPR31.14 request (or even didn't send) can be used as the basis of my defence?

 

Right now I'm thinking the quality of the agreement is questionable (but not sure if it can be considered properly executed based on what they sent), the date inconsistency is an issue, as are the charges and PPI from the statements and agreement form.

 

 

Thanks again!

[dx100uk]

you need by however a method

the statement leading up to what you already have

 

knowing welcome, i'd suspect its quite interesting.

 

without it, its going to be difficult to unravel how the account operated

and what PENALTY charges to go for.

 

there are several scattered fees refunds

 

were you in contact with them then?

 

dx

[sl33pyhead]

you're saying I need to respond to them asking for any statements for the period between 04 and 07.

 

What if there aren't actually any, or they do not have them?

 

Why would they have reversed some of the fees throughout the account?

 

Are there any grounds for defence based on what they actually did send?

 

I've have zero contact with them (or anyone else relating to this matter) other than the CPR 31.14 which IND Ltd (I'm not sure who they are or what their relationship is to Welcome) responded to.

 

Thanks again!

[dx100uk]

can yo get your CRA file please

 

see below

 

see who is listed as the owner of this debt please.

 

dx

[sl33pyhead]

Should I just do that online or via the postal method?

[dx100uk]

online is free for 30days if you have a card

 

dx

[sl33pyhead]

Just checked and its listed under Welcome Financial Services Plc. The start date is listed as 2007.

 

So what have IND got to do with anything? And why did they respond to the CPR 31.14 which was sent to Hegarty's?

[dx100uk]

IND are a DCA hagerty are soicitors.

 

wlcome are the claimants.

 

so you must have taken one out

is your sig on the agreement?

 

we have know welcome to start spoof agreements

whereby they refinanced a previous loan where punters were having trouble paying.

 

what is the default date too.

 

dx

[dx100uk]

something does not add up here:

 

the debt was not started in 2007

 

it was 2004

 

those statements total fabrication!! and for a new loan in 2007

 

i'm gonna guess this is a welcome staff refinance agreement not signed by you

happened lots of times - totally illegally.

 

you need to ask IND

 

the statements you have sent are for a loan taken out in 2007

NOT for a loan of 2004 as your claim and other paperwork

 

which as i have had no comms from anyone now in +6 years

must now be statute barred anyhow!!

 

i shall be applying for the claim to be struck out

 

and seeking compensation

 

dx

[sl33pyhead]

The default date on the CRA file is Dec 2011, which matches with the copy of the letter they sent as part of the CPR 31.14. I should point out I never received the default notice, and the loan by all account would have been in default well before that date anyhow.

 

So right now the approach is to reply to IND (or Hegarty given they are listed as the solicitor on the claim) requesting statements between 2004 and 2007. To be clear though I never took out any form of loan with Welcome in 2004, although may have done in 2007, but then the agreement they sent through is dated 2004!

 

A signature which looks a bit like mine is vaguely legible on the copy of the agreement sent though.

 

Should I file anything as defence just yet?

 

Apologies if I ask a lot of questions - just want to be sure on the way to proceed.

[dx100uk]

is the account number the same on all paperwork..

 

bet its not.

 

they are claiming on a debt from 2004 on the claim form

you have not paid or ack'd the debt in the last 6yrs

 

it is STATUTE BARRED.

 

dx

[dx100uk]

is the welcome account number on the claim form

the same welcome account number as on the agreement..in docs1

 

dx

[sl33pyhead]

Hi,

 

The statement provided and the default letter and notice both show the same account number listed within the PoC on the claim form.

 

The barely legible copy agreement has no formal account number other than a hand written number at the top of the page (which I redacted in my attached version)

- that number also matches the account number on the other paperwork,

but of course could have been written there at any point by anyone.

 

I would suggest that the style of writing is also slightly different (based on the number style) to the person who signed and dated the application form on behalf of Welcome.

 

Is the agreement itself, and at least the quality of the copy they sent through reasonable -you certainly can't clearly read it or any terms!

[dx100uk]

hand written account numbers ...urm..not good for them

 

that agreement could be from anytime.

 

they are claiming for a loan taken out in 2004

 

they must have the ORIGINAL and ledgable agreement signed by you.

NOT a RECON.

 

the statements are from 2007

 

on the statement at the start you made payments of £168.66

 

is that the repayment figure on the agreement on the top righthand side?

 

dx

[sl33pyhead]

Its looks like it could be the same amount, but frankly I can't be 100% given the incredibly poor quality of the agreement, but definitely not form of account number on there other than the handwritten numbers at the top of the page.

 

The statement I find quite fascinating with the range of charges and strange transactions listed! Are the charges or PPI a grounds for counterclaim? What is also odd about the statements is that in some cases items listed as credits appear to have no impact on the balance, along with a number of the debits. I've never quite seen a statement like this before!