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Paul zingerburger

crashed into stationary vehicle

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Friday the 18th Icy conditions,

 

I am driving at a snails pace along a road which is a very slight descent into a 90 degree bend, a

round the bend to the left are legal parking bays,

at the point of turn and for several yards down on the opposite side are double yellow lines.

 

A professional driver for a nameless security firm has parked on the double yellow lines on what I would say is the apex of the bend and abandoned his vehicle (parked not waiting).

 

here's the thing owing to the Icy conditions, his choice of illegal parking space meant that as I crawled round the corner very carefully I might add,

the line I had to take due to his position caused my car to lose traction,

 

the momentum from the 5 or so mph and the sloping road sent my car skating into his van.

 

I have already been told about how hitting a stationary vehicle is always your fault but I really feel that as a professional driver,

He should be more than aware of the dangers of parking on a corner at the bottom of an icy slope. surely professional competence comes into this,

 

surely the company he represents should be ensuring that their drivers are aware of where are appropriate places to park,

and if nothing else, double yellow lines are there for a reason and in this case had he followed the Highway Code.

at the worst I would have hit the kerb.

 

the front end of my car is dented and the bumper is cracked I feel that I had driven carefully and conscientiously.

 

I feel I can't be responsible here, this isn't a 'no fault' 'knock for knock' situation.

 

The blame (in my opinion) should be allocated to the driver or the company for whom he works.

 

Its surely coming down to the incompetence and negligence of the driver. who's with me on this?

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I'm a Technical Motor Claims Manager for a large insurance company. I've been in the industry for a few years now, and quite frankly I've never heard something as ridiculous as this.

It wasn't his poor choice of parking that caused the accident, it was your poor judgement of the ability of your vehicle.

You'd get laughed out of court with this.

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I'm a Technical Motor Claims Manager for a large insurance company. I've been in the industry for a few years now, and quite frankly I've never heard something as ridiculous as this.

It wasn't his poor choice of parking that caused the accident, it was your poor judgement of the ability of your vehicle.

You'd get laughed out of court with this.

 

Technical motor claims manager or loss adjuster?

it was a monumentally irresponsible not to mention illegal place to park.

I'd been driving my car all day through the snow and am well aware of its handling abilities.

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familuar with the road?

 

been there before?

if it was covered in snow

 

how do you know abou the DYL?

 

does that van aways park there?

 

you've gotta think very carefully here

 

took lots of photos?

 

dx


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

if everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's tomorrow

the biggest financial industry in the UK, DCA;s would collapse overnight.

 

 

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Something like this happened to me one night - I was driving along carefully as usual - when I was hit by an unlit tree coming in the other direction!!

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Friday the 18th Icy conditions, I am driving at a snails pace along a road which is a very slight descent into a 90 degree bend, around the bend to the left are legal parking bays, at the point of turn and for several yards down on the opposite side are double yellow lines.

A professional driver for a nameless security firm has parked on the double yellow lines on what I would say is the apex of the bend and abandoned his vehicle (parked not waiting). here's the thing owing to the Icy conditions, his choice of illegal parking space meant that as I crawled round the corner very carefully I might add, the line I had to take due to his position caused my car to lose traction, the momentum from the 5 or so mph and the sloping road sent my car skating into his van. I have already been told about how hitting a stationary vehicle is always your fault but I really feel that as a professional driver, He should be more than aware of the dangers of parking on a corner at the bottom of an icy slope. surely professional competence comes into this, surely the company he represents should be ensuring that their drivers are aware of where are appropriate places to park, and if nothing else, double yellow lines are there for a reason and in this case had he followed the Highway Code. at the worst I would have hit the kerb. the front end of my car is dented and the bumper is cracked I feel that I had driven carefully and conscientiously. I feel I can't be responsible here, this isn't a 'no fault' 'knock for knock' situation. The blame (in my opinion) should be allocated to the driver or the company for whom he works. Its surely coming down to the incompetence and negligence of the driver. who's with me on this?

 

IF (and it is a big if) it is to be due to "incompetence and negligence" of a driver : it is your incompetence and negligence.

 

The van may have had to be left for safety, not being able to be safely moved due to ice or the adverse weather.

It's presence should have been a warning of danger of ice / skidding.

 

You might as well say you want to sue the Almighty for the weather.

 

It isn't "knock for knock". From what you have posted it is 100% your liability. It may have been an accident, but your liability.

 

If you were expecting lots of posts agreeing with you : I fear you'll be disappointed.

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I'm afraid that you will be held liable. You may be able to reduce your liability by trying to claim that the other guy contributed to the accident by his own negligence - but from what you say, you might reduce your liability by 10%. Not more.


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familuar with the road?

 

been there before?

if it was covered in snow

 

how do you know abou the DYL?

 

does that van aways park there?

 

you've gotta think very carefully here

 

took lots of photos?

 

dx

 

The van is there on a regular basis, He was well aware of the fact he was on double yellows but oblivious to the fact that he was at the bottom of what was a slight but icy hill and that he had significantly narrowed the space available to negotiate the left turn at its most critical point. as I mentioned previously he refused to give me his name so may have been aware of potential liability.

yes I have photos of the corner, it's approach, the position of the van and the very clearly visible double yellow lines

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Technical Motor Claims Manager. Loss Adjuster is an entirely different occupation.

 

There is no getting away from the fact you collided with a stationary object. You have failed to steer or otherwise control your vehicle so as to avoid a collision. The position of his vehicle is irrelevant.

 

Give it up.

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Some vehicles are allowed to park on double yellow lines.........security transfers being one of them as are goods vehicles who are loading in some circumstances. Irrespective of this it is down to you. Quite clear cut.

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How the courts would apportion the blame and how the insurance companies will apportion the blame are two very different things.

 

Assuming the costs are mostly covered by the excess, the OP's insurer is highly likely to accept full liability. It's not going to be financially viable for them to battle it out in the courts or commercially viable for them to enter into a long and protracted argument with the other insurer over the contributory negligence of parking a car illegally. You just need to consider jpd070's insight to know that you are fighting an uphill battle.

 

BankFodder's suggestion that the illegally parked van could be held partly to blame is backed up by the courts. Hannam v Mann (1984) RTR 252 found that the owner of an illegally parked car was one quarter to blame for an accident. The judge considered that the accident could have been avoided had the car not been parked illegally (in this case, unlit and too close to a junction) but still found the driver to be three quarters to blame, which in my opinion is the absolute best-case outcome you could aim for.

 

You also need to consider any unloading exemptions for double yellow lines. The van could have been parked legally making you completely, instead of just largely, to blame.

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I think you should be looking at proximate cause i.e. the initial cause that gives rise to a chain of events. The simple test for proximate cause is "but for"

 

e.g. If it wasn't but for the ice, the accident wouldn't have happened hence the proximate cause of the accident was the ice.

 

In this incident, the proximate cause could be the illegally parked van i.e. if it wasn't but for the illegally parked van, the OP wouldn't have needed to manoeuvre around the vehicle and the accident wouldn't have happened.

 

To be successful in claiming against the van driver, you would have to prove that any reasonable person would have foreseen that parking the van in the way it was parked would be likely to cause a danger to other motorists.

 

It would be a difficult case to prove and likely to incur expensive litigation cost which insurers would seek to avoid where there is a chance that they may lose.

 

But I can see the OP point of view in that the parked van was a contributory factor to the accident happening.

 

I don't think it is fair to bring the OPs driving ability into question. If you have ever lost control of a vehicle on an icy road you would be aware that sometimes there is very little you can do to regain control. When you have no grip on the road, the vehicle will go where it wants no matter what you try to do especially where there is an incline. Its happened to me a few times and its not a nice experience!

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Not at all Northernpug. If a driver loses control of a vehicle it is down to the driver irrespective of the conditions. In this case the driver admits it was icy so the driver should have been driving 1. According to the conditions, surroundings and 2. According to their abilities in those conditions.

 

It is quite safe to drive on ice if you know what you are doing and how to react.

 

In most cases where a car starts to slide on ice the driver tends to hit the brakes which is the wrong thing to do and is frequently the cause of hitting things rather than reacting in an appropriate manner.

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I don't think it is fair to bring the OPs driving ability into question. If you have ever lost control of a vehicle on an icy road you would be aware that sometimes there is very little you can do to regain control. When you have no grip on the road, the vehicle will go where it wants no matter what you try to do especially where there is an incline. Its happened to me a few times and its not a nice experience!

 

It is unclear whose comments you feel are unfair, as you haven't quoted them.

 

My contribution was:

 

IF (and it is a big if) it is to be due to "incompetence and negligence" of a driver : it is your incompetence and negligence.

 

So, I did say "if", and the OP was all too ready to suggest the van driver was incompetent / negligent!

 

Even a skilled driver can have an accident.

However, which is more common : skilled driver driving within their competence who has an accident, or driver driving outside their abilities who then blames anyone except themselves (or accepts that sometimes, accidents happen)

Edited by BazzaS

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heliosuk, I am well aware of the theory of what to do when you get into a skid situation and it generally works when on the flat but on an icy hill, it makes little difference, the vehicle will just go where it wants.

 

To drive safely on ice you need winter tyres which very few cars in the UK have fitted.

 

The OP stated that he was doing 5mph, i.e. driving according to the conditions. The vehicle started to slide down a sloping road. When you slide down a slope, braking don't work, steering don't work and accelerating even gently is likely to cause the wheels to spin and increase sideways motion so what do you suggest should be done to regain control of a vehicle sliding down a hill?

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it surpises me that 5-10MPH did any damage.....

unless the slide increased his speed....

 

if his excess is higher than the cost of repair, to me its a no brainer.

 

even lets say he did win, increased premuims [that they say always don't happen] must surely contribute too.

 

it might also be intereting if the van driver decided to claim as well.......

 

dx


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

if everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's tomorrow

the biggest financial industry in the UK, DCA;s would collapse overnight.

 

 

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heliosuk, I am well aware of the theory of what to do when you get into a skid situation and it generally works when on the flat but on an icy hill, it makes little difference, the vehicle will just go where it wants.

 

To drive safely on ice you need winter tyres which very few cars in the UK have fitted.

 

The OP stated that he was doing 5mph, i.e. driving according to the conditions. The vehicle started to slide down a sloping road. When you slide down a slope, braking don't work, steering don't work and accelerating even gently is likely to cause the wheels to spin and increase sideways motion so what do you suggest should be done to regain control of a vehicle sliding down a hill?

 

I'm watching this with great interest as it happened to me a few months ago (apart from there being a parked vehicle there). Ice on an un-treated hill with a sharp bend at the bottom. I drove very appropriately going down the hill at about 5 mph. All was well until I began to turn the wheels into the bend at the bottom... car carried straight on! Managed to bring the car to a halt before hitting the kerb (road quite narrow) but had there been anything parked in the bend, I would of certainly hit it.

 

Now I regard myself as a competent driver (PCV class 1 etc) but there was NOTHING i could of done to avoid a collision.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.


Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

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If going down icy hills at 5 miles an hour still causes the car to skid then the obvious thing too say is the speed was not appropriate to the conditions. The way to avoid the collision or potential collision would be to avoid the hill as it was clearly too risky to drive down.

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If going down icy hills at 5 miles an hour still causes the car to skid then the obvious thing too say is the speed was not appropriate to the conditions. The way to avoid the collision or potential collision would be to avoid the hill as it was clearly too risky to drive down.

 

Brilliant! And with the absence of any warning signs, exactly how do you know whether there is any ice there or not unless you drive down there? AND even if you do discover the road is icy, exactly how do you then avoid it once you are already driving down it?

 

In my case, I was able to negotiate the road without having an accident. BUT I put that down to partial skill and partial luck. Had there been something coming the other way or something parked on the bend, I certainly would of hit it. At the end of the day, the LA responsible for the roads should either treat or close them, especially hilly ones.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.


Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

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I was in a similar situation the other day. Luckily my car slid into the kerb and not another car. I was turning off the ungritted main road into a secondary road ( also ungritted). I was pulling off in second gear, doing no more than 5 mph, the car lost all grip and slid sideways into the kerb.

 

Result? The front nearside wheel was bent and the steering became loose. So yes, to say things cant happen at low speeds is silly at best, and those who are saying "drive to the conditions" either have no clue what they are talking about, or seem to think we live in a perfect world.

 

I should add i know 100% i was doing no more than 5 mph as my GPS records my speed. Every time i stop for more than 5-10 secs, it "saves" then "resets" itself, so i know how fast i was going at certain points.


Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

If my advice helps you, click the star icon at the bottom of my post and feel free to say thanks

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It was an accident, things happen, but if you hit somthing thats stationary and you are the one moving its got to be down to you, if you challenge this and say that the other vehicle wasnt parked correctly then they could come back and say the op was driving dangerously, or without due care and attention, it a nuscience but it is just one of those things and I would say not worth getting into a debate with the insurance companies.


If I have been of any help, please click on my star and let me know, thank you.

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It's not rocket science this..........if you get into a slide on ice you are going too fast for the conditions. And as regards trying to hold a parked van as responsible or a contributory factor whether it is parked legally or not............well that's just beyond me.

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Again. it takes one loss of grip under the car to cause you to slide, and once you start sliding, its almost impossible to stop, no matter how fast you were going.

 

However, i do agree with the van comment. If you saw a van there and the road surface was obviously hazardous, the driver should have left PLENTY of space, and if they were unsure, just do what the van driver did. Park up and walk, or take another route.


Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

If my advice helps you, click the star icon at the bottom of my post and feel free to say thanks

:D

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It's not rocket science this..........if you get into a slide on ice you are going too fast for the conditions.

 

I find it astounding that you fail to understand or accept that some slides, given the right conditions, are neither caused by the driver nor able to be stopped by the driver.

 

On a slope or hill, simply making any attempt to move the car may be too much, but until you move the car you don't know! I have seen cars slide sideways at a snails pace and even seen them side backwards when a forward motion up a slope was intended.

 

I am not necessarily saying the OPs bump was such a case, but you total non-acceptance that such slides can take place is somewhat surprising.

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Errrrrrrrrrrrr....think you might want to re think this one. GPS is not real time and a lot happens in 5 to 10 seconds.

 

If you skid out of control on ice you are either going too fastor should not have been there.

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