In a nutshell - bailiff entry into home?

[akrissify]

Hi there,

 

I'm new here and have been reading for some time... I need some advice, please:

 

I'm an employed Carer and I look after a man who has paranoid schizophrenia. He lives alone in a privately-rented bungalow. This gentleman tells me that he has a large debt from one of his previous addresses and he worries that the bailiffs are coming "to get him".

 

I've been reading various forums and want to know, if this disabled gentleman were to refuse the bailiff's entry into his home, is it impossible for them to take away any goods?

 

The gentleman does not have a car, the garden area is secure (walled with barbed wire and he has 2 dogs) and because of the paranoia associated with his illness and his fears, he says he always keeps all the doors and windows locked. He does not answer the door to anyone and only goes out late at night to the shops.

 

He has developed a fear that the bailiffs are going to break into his home when he is out at the shops. He has not had any contact from bailiffs, but is convinced they are "coming for him" for an old debt.

 

If they do come, should he refuse to let them in? If he does this, what effect does this have? If he continues to refuse to let them in, what happens then?

 

As far as I can see, the debt he has (CCJ) is for rent arrears for a sum of £12,750 from a flat he lived in 5 years ago; it seems the landlord was an unscrupulous and abusive one and fabricated most of the claim but it was undefended in the County Court, so the CCJ remains. I am trying to initiate contact with a solicitor to get this claim Set Aside but don't know how easy it will be (in reality, he owes about £2,500 at best).

 

If anyone can answer the above questions about bailiff entry, it would help me greatly. He is of very confused mind and behaviour and any simple advice I can give him would be greatly appreciated. He's also on disability benefits with no other income, so I don't know if that changes the situation.

 

thank you!

Anton

[Surfer01]

If he can stick it out another year the debt may become statute barred if no payments have been made so setting it aside may not be the best option. Maybe someone else can give better advice.

[wonkeydonkey]

Surfer01 is correct but, to explain further ....any debt that has gone without payment or acknowledgement to being owed, becomes statute barred after a period of 6yrs (5yrs in Scotland) this means the debt does not go away but it does mean the most that can be asked by anyone attempting to enforce is a polite request to 'please pay me..if that goes without reply they are snookered as they cannot 'send in' anyone 'to get him'.

 

However, if there is good reason to apply for set aside it should have been done at the time the ccj was awarded because the Court take a dim view of 'late' applications......that said, if this man is supported by a mental health team who can swear he was not 'mentally capable' of defending the claim when issued and only recently able to recollect vague circumstances of the claim, then yes he can go for set aside.....he would benefit from a solicitor defending the claim (contesting it) but he does not necessarily need one if he has the support of the aforementioned.

 

He is definitely classed as vulnerable under the standards of enforcement, should any bailiff come a knocking at the door they will have to back off very quickly and as long as they are denied access to his home and unable to levy on goods of any value outside his home, he has little to worry about.

 

WD

[i hate bailiffs]

He has developed a fear that the bailiffs are going to break into his home when he is out at the shops. He has not had any contact from bailiffs, but is convinced they are "coming for him" for an old debt.

 

Even with a CCJ there is NO right of entry to a residential address

Edited January 21, 2013 by Conniff

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Hi there,

 

I'm new here and have been reading for some time... I need some advice, please:

 

I'm an employed Carer and I look after a man who has paranoid schizophrenia. He lives alone in a privately-rented bungalow. This gentleman tells me that he has a large debt from one of his previous addresses and he worries that the bailiffs are coming "to get him".

 

#

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've been reading various forums and want to know, if this disabled gentleman were to refuse the bailiff's entry into his home, is it impossible for them to take away any goods?

 

The gentleman does not have a car, the garden area is secure (walled with barbed wire and he has 2 dogs) and because of the paranoia associated with his illness and his fears, he says he always keeps all the doors and windows locked. He does not answer the door to anyone and only goes out late at night to the shops.

 

He has developed a fear that the bailiffs are going to break into his home when he is out at the shops. He has not had any contact from bailiffs, but is convinced they are "coming for him" for an old debt.

 

If they do come, should he refuse to let them in? If he does this, what effect does this have? If he continues to refuse to let them in, what happens then?

 

As far as I can see, the debt he has (CCJ) is for rent arrears for a sum of £12,750 from a flat he lived in 5 years ago; it seems the landlord was an unscrupulous and abusive one and fabricated most of the claim but it was undefended in the County Court, so the CCJ remains. I am trying to initiate contact with a solicitor to get this claim Set Aside but don't know how easy it will be (in reality, he owes about £2,500 at best).

 

If anyone can answer the above questions about bailiff entry, it would help me greatly. He is of very confused mind and behaviour and any simple advice I can give him would be greatly appreciated. He's also on disability benefits with no other income, so I don't know if that changes the situation.

 

thank you!

Anton

 

Hi wecome to CAG,

 

Obviously your client is a very vulneeable person and any person/company attempting to gain access to his home must be immediately made aware of this.

 

Has he to your knowledge made any payment since the CCJ was obtained or when he actully sropped payng the rent?

 

You are not obliged to let a bailiff in but they may gain ''peaceful'' entry via any open door or window including any in outhouses, garages and sheds.

 

The real point now is has there been any recent contact with the claimant?

 

It would be a good idea to get a Drs. Statement setting out his medical conditions and vulnerability.

 

Care is needed in making contact now as it may only initiate enforcement activity which is not evident at present.

[RaeUK]

... I'm an employed Carer and I look after a man who has paranoid schizophrenia. ...

 

Your client is very clearly vulnerable and would not be subject to sustainable bailiff action, as has been said. I suspect he may not fully understand that but as long as you do then that's half the battle. If you do find bailiff action has been initiated then you will get all the help and advice you need from the posters here.

[brassnecked]

Has anyone been given power of attourney for this gentleman, if so asnd baikliffs become involved, it should be a simple matter to appraise the bailiffs and creditor, of this and remind them that they would be in some hot water if the tried enforcing against him personally. Even if he is fully compus mentus, and looking after his own affairs, just give him reassurance and keep your eyes open for any evidence of as bailiff calling.

[akrissify]

Hi guys and girls, I'd like to thank every one for their comments. I do not have Power of Attorney but it does seem that the rogue landlord who is chasing my client does not know where he lives.

 

I've emailed the rogue landlord to try and ask for details and he sent me an abusive reply saying he wanted to know my client's new home address and that he was going to 'break my nose'. He also said he'd found 'the most violent bailiff in the Southeast' and that they would be traced my client and seizing all his assets. He also said he used to work as a bailiff and knows every trick in the book for getting into people's home. "The bailiff has more right to be in your home than you do" was how he put it.

 

Ive reported this to the Police, esp the threat re broken nose. I think you can see why my client feels scared.

 

I have told my client not to answer the door to the bailiff, and to keep all his windows and doors locked. This should not be any problem given his concerns over general safety.

 

I am guessing that if my client does not open the door to bailiffs, nor does he speak to the bailiff if they were ever to arrive, there's nothing the bailiff can do to enter my client's bungalow and seize goods?

 

thanks again everyone.

Anton

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Your client Must if anyone unkown to him attempts to call/get access to the property call the police and refer them to the complaint you have made to the police.

 

Yes make sure he know not to open the door to anyone unknown, you could invent a password that all known regular callers can give.

[SURFBOY]

Might be a good idea, if ever bailiff does call, to video and record everything from a closed window or through the letterbox.

[akrissify]

Hi Brigadier, thanks, that's a very good idea. Surfboy, thanks also. He has asked me about getting a CCTV installed to monitor people coming and going, so I will organise that for him.

 

What would a bailiff do if this gentleman simply refused to open the door and refused to speak to them on every visit? My client doesn't answer the door even to the postman or milkman, this is because of his illness and his fears, and so he's hardly likely to speak to a bailiff. What do you think could happen if he just refused all contact, not even speaking to them through the letterbox or acknowledging they're out there? Just a complete denial that they even exist? This is the way he feels towards visitors (there tend to be a lot in his area, such as Jehovah's Witnesses, sales people, etc).

 

thanks again

Anton

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Nothing they can do but in the end return a warrant f execution to the court as Nul Bono (no good) as long as the premises are always secure that's it.

[ploddertom]

Hi guys and girls, I'd like to thank every one for their comments. I do not have Power of Attorney but it does seem that the rogue landlord who is chasing my client does not know where he lives.

 

I've emailed the rogue landlord to try and ask for details and he sent me an abusive reply saying he wanted to know my client's new home address and that he was going to 'break my nose'. He also said he'd found 'the most violent bailiff in the Southeast' and that they would be traced my client and seizing all his assets. He also said he used to work as a bailiff and knows every trick in the book for getting into people's home. "The bailiff has more right to be in your home than you do" was how he put it. He is talking out of his derriere. To enforce this would need either the local County Court Bailiff - which I doubt will happen if he does not know where your client now lives or a High Court Enforcement Officer who will have the same problem.

 

Ive reported this to the Police, esp the threat re broken nose. I think you can see why my client feels scared. What response did you get from the Police?

 

I have told my client not to answer the door to the bailiff, and to keep all his windows and doors locked. This should not be any problem given his concerns over general safety.

 

I am guessing that if my client does not open the door to bailiffs, nor does he speak to the bailiff if they were ever to arrive, there's nothing the bailiff can do to enter my client's bungalow and seize goods?

 

thanks again everyone.

Anton

 

How old is the CCJ?

[brassnecked]

The Ex Landlord would be guilty of Demanding Money With Menaces with that attitude.

[RaeUK]

Again, I wouldn't worry about the bailiff. By all means enhance security for personal reasons as the former landlord sounds like an idiot, but even if the bailiff gained access by underhand means he would get nothing but trouble. It is so patently obvious that your client is vulnerable he would be able to pursue the bailiff through every court throughout eternity. But, to be honest, I suspect the former landlord is simply trying to frighten.

[seanamarts]

What did the police say about this?

[brassnecked]

Yes ditto, did the police take it seriously, or give the usual dismissive "It's Civil" response. If so complain to Chief Constable copied to MP.

[akrissify]

Yes ditto, did the police take it seriously, or give the usual dismissive "It's Civil" response. If so complain to Chief Constable copied to MP.

 

Hi there everyone,

 

The debt is 5 years old, it will be 6 years old at the end of this year (October).

 

I think the ex-landlord is having 'one final gasp of breathe' to try and get his money before it becomes statute barred; money he isn't actually owed, either (see below).

 

The police gave me a crime reference number but yes, they reminded me that it's a civil matter and that they would only attend in person if there was a breach of the peace. I told them that my client is a man living alone with schizophrenia and is considered vulnerable and they said that the bailiffs/HCEOs still had a right to collect money irrespective of any mental illness of the debtor and that baillifs have a hard job to do and often hear these types of 'excuses' to wriggle out of facing up to one's debts. This response I find truly astonishing.

 

This rogue landlord has emailed me stating a brick would be thrown through the window and the bailiffs would break in and cart this gentleman off in handcuffs and he'd be committed to prison.

 

* * Deep breathe * *

 

My feeling from having watched recently The Sherriffs are Coming and having seen some of these bailiffs/HCEOs at work is that the police's response to me does not seem to be the same attitude of the police portrayed in these programmes.

 

My solicitor phoned me this morning and has advised me that no HCEO/bailiff, no matter what he might say, can enter a previously-unentered dwelling-house (unless a window or door is left open or he is explicitly invited in by the occupant). This message has been repreated by many good people on these forums too.

 

However, I suspect that this particular TV programme is very much biased towards the bailiff/HCEO. I can see that these bailiffs/HCEOs rely on intimidation and fear: making as much noise and causing as much alarm when outside those peoples' properties. No doubt they've travelled miles and they hear all sorts of excuses and they just want to go for the Short-Sharp-Shock tactic to get their money and, more importantly, their fees. Whether or not they have limited rights of entry, these men seem to think they can say what they like and the debtor will believe it to be true.

 

However, this won't be the case if this rogue landlord does find my client's new home address and sends any hardened bailiff/HCEO round to try and enforce this fabricated debt, because my client simply won't answer the door and there is nothing on the driveway or in the locked garden area of any value (unless moss-covered garden gnomes are of value to bailiffs?).

 

I do feel that the ex-landlord's email was abusive given the polite and conciliatory email I sent him, so I'm going to escalate it to the Chief Constable of the local constabulary, and see what happens. I have access to my client's bank statements going back 6 years and it turns out he owes nothing like the £12,500 that was stated in the CCJ; more like £2,500.

 

I spoke to my client this morning and although he was very distressed and confused about the whole situation and still believes that there's going to be a knock on his door any day, he did manage to say to me the words "An Englishman's home is his castle. I'm not going to be letting anyone in, other than you" so your advice given here has certainly helped him. He lives many, many miles away from the ex-landlord in an entirely different part of the country too, so at least the distance is reassuring to him. He's not on the Electoral Register and doesn't have a bank account that would show up on a credit search at any address so I think he should be pretty undetectable should this person try and trace him. Thanks everyone!

 

best wishes

Anton

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Well I hope yhis works out ok Anton, please come back to CAG if you need furtherb help!!

[akrissify]

Well I hope yhis works out ok Anton, please come back to CAG if you need furtherb help!!

 

 

Thanks Brigadier and everyone else who took the time to respond! Thank you also to Ploddertom for his posting about Devon and Cornwall's Police Force policy on Bailliffs. I cannot link it as I'm only a junior on here, but it's at the top of the main index. Anyone reading this thread and in a similar situation should have a read of it, it contains everything you need to know and you should perhaps print it off and keep it by your locked front door.

 

All the best to you all. Anton

[tomtubby]

In almost all cases I would NORMALLY suggest that your "client" ( for want of a better word) should file an N244 to get the judgment set aside. However, in this particular case, I would NOT go this route and the reason why is because on the form he will be required to provide his NEW address and given the simply astonishing threat that has been made by the "creditor" I would not consider it wise to provide his address.

 

Instead...and in light of the recent threat I would urge you to again contact the police. They are the best to deal with this.

[brassnecked]

"This rogue landlord has emailed me stating a brick would be thrown through the window and the bailiffs would break in and cart this gentleman off in handcuffs and he'd be committed to prison."

 

Print the email from the ex landlord, take it to the police with reference to your inquiry, and ask them "Is this still civil?" with the blatant threat and menace promised in it.

[1Loretta]

The police just don't know how to join the dots do they? debt collecting - legal, threats of violence and damage - illegal, why did they give you a crime number if they thought it was civil? why don't they realise it has now changed to a crime?

[Sparks_]

Or is it a case of 'cant be bothered' by the police?

[cerberus]

Hey,

 

Was just wondering how things are going with this case?

 

One point I would like to make: the IP address from most emails can give the general location of an individual. The landlord may be too stupid to work out how to do this. So he may not have a general location.

 

As a suggestion, use Gmail or another web-based email service that won't disclose IP address (Gmail is also useful incase he attempts to send any nasties via email, info harvesters etc). And/or use a proxy service such as the tor/privoxy bundle with Firefox (Google the term 'tor onion routing', it'll tell you what to do, this tech has been used by intelligence services). It will anonymise, to a certain extent, who you are online.

 

The police are beyond belief. If you go to the station again, don't deal with the front desk officer, ask to speak to an inspector/cid concerning threats and intimidation. If this inspector says it's civil, remind him that threats of violence are a criminal offence, and if he is refusing to process the case, you want it recorded and a copy of the report. You can then take it higher. The police are also in a position where, through their inaction, aiding a crime to take place (threats, and there is clear evidence of crime). The police dealing with the matter can be seriously reprimanded for not knowing the law, and you/your client can probably seek compensation.

 

I'm sorry this is happening to your client. I'm sorry the police are so incompetent. And I'm sorry your client's ex-landlord is a complete and utter w****r. No one should be treated the way your client has, let alone someone as vulnerable as your client.

 

Please keep us updated as to what happens. I hope your client is okay, and that he finds some peace soon.