Penalty Fare, They Took a Care Of Address But I Don't Live in the UK...

[randomenglishguy]

I arrived to gatwick yesterday and bought a train ticket in a rush, and instead of grabbing my ticket i picked up someone else's payment confirmation slip (which annoyingly enough looks like a ticket). I made a rush for the platforms and the guard saw me running so he opened the gate to let me through. I got on the train, the inspector came along and found me the wrong bit of oblong paper.

 

I refused to pay but gave a friend's address where the bill could be sent. I don't live in england however and don't feel morally obliged to pay because even though i made a mistake i did actually pay for a ticket.

 

He even forgot to give me a copy of the sheet that i signed.

 

As I don't live in the UK can i get away with this?

[firstclassx]

I arrived to gatwick yesterday and bought a train ticket in a rush, and instead of grabbing my ticket i picked up someone else's payment confirmation slip (which annoyingly enough looks like a ticket). I made a rush for the platforms and the guard saw me running so he opened the gate to let me through. I got on the train, the inspector came along and found me the wrong bit of oblong paper.

 

I refused to pay but gave a friend's address where the bill could be sent. I don't live in england however and don't feel morally obliged to pay because even though i made a mistake i did actually pay for a ticket.

 

He even forgot to give me a copy of the sheet that i signed.

 

As I don't live in the UK can i get away with this?

 

You will be convicted in court, and fined in your absence for breach of Railway Byelaw 18(1).

 

As long as you don't come back to the UK, you won't have a problem.

 

If you do return to the UK after an extended period of time, you may find that on your return, an arrest warrant may be have been issued, (for non-payment of fines) and the UKBA may detain you and hand you over to police, where you will be put before the next available court session.

 

Your friend may also find that court appointed bailiffs appear within the next year or so.

[Bang!]

I can't help wondering how often that happens. Was a real DoB given (or required)? If not I bet every Jose Garcia and Johan Smitt must get a right grilling each time from the UKBA.

 

Actually have the tories not replaced the UKBA uniform with shorts and a tshirt, as even they know the UKBA are incapable of even catching a cold?

[randomenglishguy]

Yes, I gave my real details.

 

What if I pick up the letter they will send and write them back from greece, explaining that that is where I live and put forth the argument that the guard at gatwick was at fault for waving me through in my confused state of mind after my long journey.

 

Do they really go to the expense of a court hearing in cases like this against someone non-resident here and with no assets?

[honeybee13]

Hello again.

 

I expect there will be help with a possible argument for you once we know what law or byelaw they think you contravened. There's a chance they won't write at all.

 

For what it's worth though, if you want to get the train company on your side, telling them their member of staff is at fault is very unlikely to achieve it. I haven't seen it work yet, I don't think.

 

HB

[firstclassx]

Byelaw 18

 

(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.

 

Byelaw 24

 

(1) Any person who breaches any of these Byelaws commits an offence and [...] may be liable for each such offence to a penalty not exceeding level 3, (£1000), on the standard scale.

[RPI]

Yes, I gave my real details.

 

What if I pick up the letter they will send and write them back from greece, explaining that that is where I live and put forth the argument that the guard at gatwick was at fault for waving me through in my confused state of mind after my long journey.

 

Do they really go to the expense of a court hearing in cases like this against someone non-resident here and with no assets?

 

It's no ones fault but your own so stop trying to pass the buck, it is unfortunate that you picked up the wrong ticket but is it the railways fault that you did this? no.

[Old-CodJA]

Yes, I gave my real details.

 

What if I pick up the letter they will send and write them back from greece, explaining that that is where I live and put forth the argument that the guard at gatwick was at fault for waving me through in my confused state of mind after my long journey.

 

Do they really go to the expense of a court hearing in cases like this against someone non-resident here and with no assets?

 

 

Given the number of extra staff involved in assisting travellers and ticket checking at Gatwick these days and the generally higher levels of security at stations such as this, it would be relatively easy for the company to check what happened there.

 

Yes, they can pursue action in cases such as this if they choose to do so.

 

HB is right, blaming staff for your own failure to check your ticket without any firm evidence to support your claim is very likely to be counter productive.

[honeybee13]

OC, we have two different threads running at the moment, about people who are leaving the country before any communication or possible court case.

 

Would you happen to know what happens if there is an unresolved case outstanding when someone returns to the UK please? It would be useful to know, because this has cropped up before. I hope my question makes sense.

 

My best, HB

[Old-CodJA]

If the alleged offender does not reply to a Summons by contacting the Court or prosecutor's office, the prosecutor will normally ask the Court to hear the case in absence and a conviction may well be recorded.

 

This can result in someone returning to the UK to find that they now have a criminal conviction and unpaid fines.

 

The person convicted will then have to convince the Court that they knew nothing about the Summons and will have to make a Statutory Declaration on oath before a Court to that effect.

 

The Court will then set aside the judgment, making the original prosecution null & void, but the prosecutor will be free to issue a fresh Summons without time constraints and the prosecution begins again.

[Stigy]

 

He even forgot to give me a copy of the sheet that i signed.

 

As I don't live in the UK can i get away with this?

If you were reported, there's no requirement to give you any paperwork.

 

Look at this from the RPI's viewpoint, you had no ticket, just a receipt....What's to say you didn't know exactly what you were doing?

[honeybee13]

If the alleged offender does not reply to a Summons by contacting the Court or prosecutor's office, the prosecutor will normally ask the Court to hear the case in absence and a conviction may well be recorded.

 

This can result in someone returning to the UK to find that they now have a criminal conviction and unpaid fines.

 

The person convicted will then have to convince the Court that they knew nothing about the Summons and will have to make a Statutory Declaration on oath before a Court to that effect.

 

The Court will then set aside the judgment, making the original prosecution null & void, but the prosecutor will be free to issue a fresh Summons without time constraints and the prosecution begins again.

 

Thank you, that's very clear. I think I remember this happening to a forum member in the last year or so.

 

HB

[Old-CodJA]

Thank you, that's very clear. I think I remember this happening to a forum member in the last year or so.

 

HB

 

Yes, and things certainly didn't seem to work out the way that user had planned as I recall.

 

As a matter of interest, we did have a case where exactly this happened. (one of many, Statutory Declarations are relatively common)

 

 

The prosecution was restarted and at Court on the second occasion, the defendant, who had made a Statutory Declaration that he knew nothing about it, was somewhat non-plussed to find that his memory had let him down. Immediately following service of the first Summons the company had received an email from the defendant, but he had forgotten this when making his Stat. Dec.

 

He was fortunate in a sense, the Court convicted on the original charge and fined quite heavily, but the matter could have resulted in a charge of perjury, which could carry a 2 year prison sentence in some cases.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Old-CodJA

[randomenglishguy]

Thanks for all the responses.

 

I asked a ticket inspector today what happens if when the bill is sent out it's returned to the sender and he said they'd just drop it. Especially as it was a first-time offence.

[BazzaS]

Thanks for all the responses.

 

I asked a ticket inspector today what happens if when the bill is sent out it's returned to the sender and he said they'd just drop it. Especially as it was a first-time offence.

 

I suspect it depends on the question asked of the ticket inspector .......

 

did you ask "what happens if I get sent a bill", or

"what happens if I get sent a letter asking me to offer my version of events before they decide if they want to send a summons", or

"what happens if they send a summons".

 

I'd tend to believe what OC has said (as they work in Prosecutions, and I've yet to see a response from them that has later been shown to be clearly wrong!)

[Old-CodJA]

Thanks for all the responses.

 

I asked a ticket inspector today what happens if when the bill is sent out it's returned to the sender and he said they'd just drop it. Especially as it was a first-time offence.

 

 

All I can say is that it appears that some inspectors may well have no clue as to what happens after their report is sent in to their admin. office.

 

Be that as it may, it is clearly a matter for you

Edited January 19, 2013 by Old-CodJA

[honeybee13]

Sorry OP, I agree with the guys.

 

As I understand it, a ticket inspector doesn't normally get involved in the prosecution process.

 

It's up to you who you believe though.

 

HB