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received letter threatening summons - no valid ticket

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Hello

 

My husband has received a letter from Transport Investigations Ltd. regarding an 'incident' which is how they refer to it from last month.

 

My husband was on his way home from work a month ago, on the same train/route which he uses many times each week.

 

He buys his ticket (£2.80 ish) on the train as a rule,

 

a conductor comes along and t'other half purchases his ticket whilst on the train.

 

Well this day, the conductor didn't come, and the train arrived at the station where he gets off - it's a small local line with a small station.

 

my husband along with other passengers get stopped on the station and are asked for their tickets,

 

he and all the other passengers explain that the conductor or whatever the guy's job title is didn't come to them, and none of them had a ticket.

 

A letter arrives today from TIL, and it's quite intimidating tbh.

 

It says that the purpose of the letter is to advise my husband of the proposed court action.

 

..this file is presently with our prosecuters team who are considering whether to issue a summons'...etc etc.

 

it ends with

 

'If I do not receive any written representation frm you within 14 days of the date of this letter,

a Summons to a Magistrates Court hearing may be issued without further reference to you'.

 

All rather heavy handed imo, he travels this route a few times every week, and this has never happened before or since that day last month.

 

We don't know what to do, and hope that we can get some advice from anyone on here.

 

Many thanks

Edited by Kim72

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Hello there. I hope the forum regulars will be along later on. Of course it's hard to advise for sure until you hear from TIL and it may be OK, you never know.

 

Sadly, having read this forum for a while, I think your OH and his fellow passengers may have fallen foul of a recent initiative to persuade passengers to buy tickets before they board the train.

 

I believe that this is the normal rule and that the information is often displayed at stations. However, some lines have been tolerant about passengers not having a ticket before they board the train and have decided to crack down for whatever reason, possibly falling revenues.

 

Some of the people on the forum are very good at advising what to say as a reply to the type of letter you mention and I hope they will see your thread.

 

My best, HB


Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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ok

 

you need to be aware that although 'it was the norm' for your OH to get a ticket onboard

 

sadly, it is HIS problem to seek out the conductor and purchase one.

 

i would not use that as any kind of defence in your letter

 

how you actually word it is another matter.

 

though i would suspect that as there are lots of you this one might be easier

 

dx


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Was this Arriva Trains Wales by any chance which occurred at...

 

Nantwich

Frodsham/Runcorn East

Chester

 

And the incident happened around start-mid December 2012

 

???

 

If it is the incident is the same one I am thinking about, the person travelled from Crewe-Nantwich and on arrival at Nantwich had no ticket, and tried to exit station. Crewe had facilities to pay and train had a conductor.

 

As Nantwich is unstaffed, as soon as (s)he left the train, they would know full well they would not be able to pay for the journey they had made, until, of course, they discovered a random RPI check.

 

As Crewe is fully staffed, and has self service machines, an offence is committed.

 

Why do you think it is ok to pay on the train, when a TOC is paying thousand per year to provide ticket facilities at a station? If he has been getting away with it for so long, it is about time some enforcement action was taken.

 

If the RPIs hadn't of been there, he would have left the station without paying a penny.

Edited by firstclassx

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Hello again.

 

To follow on from what dx has said, it is the passenger's responsibility to have a valid ticket or to seek out a conductor on the train. I think it would be in your OH's interest to do this from now on [i mean buy a ticket in advance], especially as this other matter is outstanding. It looks worse if someone is accused again.

 

HB


Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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I can advise that if it is indeed the "Nantwich" operation I mentioned earlier, Arriva Trains Wales (through Transport Investigations Ltd), are looking to "re-educate" the travelling public into their legal responsibilities on the railway.

 

Getting him to write a very apologetic letter, admitting liability, advising they have learnt their lesson and attach £75-£100 to cover their "administrative costs", is likely to be sufficient. This once.

 

Any further incidents will result in a court summons and criminal record.

 

ATW materials state:

 

It is your responsibility to be in possession of a ticket. Before you board you must buy a ticket at the first available opportunity. Tickets are available from:

 

Your nearest rail booking office

Ticket Vending Machines at selected stations.

On-line at http://www.buytickets.arrivatrainswales.co.uk

By phone on 0870 9000 773

If you have not purchased a ticket in advance or there are no facilities to buy at the station where you started the journey, only then should you buy a ticket on the train or from other rail retail staff.

 

Don’t forget:

Your nearest rail booking office can help you choose the best ticket for your journey. They can also provide travel advice, season tickets and information on money saving offers.

 

Fraudulent travel can lead to prosecution, a penalty of up to £1000 or up to 3 months in prison.

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Did your husband board at a station WITH a ticket office or a ticket machine if he did then he has committed an offence under British railways bye laws for failing to buy a ticket before boarding as it is a LEGAL requirement to buy before boarding

If there are no ticket buying facilities the your husband will have a good chance to contest it where he may end up paying a penalty instead of the summons.

I can not discuss this matter in great detail but get a copy of British railways buy laws and national condition of carriage

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I don't know who the train company is, I've seen the letter and it doesn't say. It's very rare that I use the train service tbh.

 

He doesn't use the service every day, just some, He said that he buys his ticket once seated, he has the change with which to pay as a rule, I know this because he asks me for change sometimes.

 

I'm saddened and feel let down in learning that he could've done this knowingly. If this is the case i'm inclined to leave him to handle it - his mistake, his doing, his to undo etc.

 

Thank you for your replies.

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Is it Nantwich though?

 

If he travelled Crewe-Nantwich and tried to leave the station without paying, and was subsequently stopped, then he only has himself to blame.

 

At Crewe you actually walk past a travel centre, ticket office and 2 x self service ticket machines before you even get to the platforms! More fool him if he chose to walk past without paying!

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I don't know who the train company is, I've seen the letter and it doesn't say. It's very rare that I use the train service tbh.

 

He doesn't use the service every day, just some, He said that he buys his ticket once seated, he has the change with which to pay as a rule, I know this because he asks me for change sometimes.

 

I'm saddened and feel let down in learning that he could've done this knowingly. If this is the case i'm inclined to leave him to handle it - his mistake, his doing, his to undo etc.

 

Thank you for your replies.

 

Hi Kim. I can see that would be disappointing for you, I would feel the same. My own view is that he needs to get it right from now on to avoid future problems, but you don't know what the letter is going to say yet.

 

Have you asked your OH about what happened and does it sound like what firstclassx has described? Please don't tell us anything that might identify him.

 

My best, HB


Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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sorry, I didn't say, he has always paid in cash on the train. My mother uses the train on occasion (the same station - different destination) and she always pays in cash to the conductor. I think, with both of them it's because they travel on relatively short journeys and it's similar to a bus service in that way.

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Hi Kim. I can see that would be disappointing for you, I would feel the same. My own view is that he needs to get it right from now on to avoid future problems, but you don't know what the letter is going to say yet.

 

Have you asked your OH about what happened and does it sound like what firstclassx has described? Please don't tell us anything that might identify him.

 

My best, HB

 

I remember the day itself, although I hadn't remembered the date, because he told me when he arrived home. He said that there were quite a few other passengers in the same situation as him, but that not all of them had started their journey where he had though.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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so where did he board the train?

 

 

dx


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so where did he board the train?

 

 

dx

 

sorry, Crewe, Cheshire.

 

He has shown me loads of tickets just now, orange coloured tickets, he said that almost all of them were bought on the train but that he has paid for his tickets at the ticket booth over the last few weeks, I presume that this is on the station.

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so, in all probability he has just got caught up in this 'sweep' that has been necessary, as others, but not him

found a loop hole that could be exploited.

 

me thinks that p'haps the letter grovelling wise, that has been eluded too is the answer

 

along with a photocopy or p'haps the originals of his evidence of 'paying' in the past, might resolve this

with the need for court or a criminal record avoided

 

dx


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Since the 1980s it has become a more common habit in many areas for travellers to board trains without first buying a ticket and only paying if challenged to do so despite facilities being available. Frequently, there are considerable numbers of travellers who do not declare their journey unless asked directly and if not, walk away from the railway at their destination without paying. There is clear legislation and case precedent that show this to be an offence that, if reported and prosecuted, can be very expensive in terms of the fine and conviction does carry a criminal record, which will show on basic CRB checks.

 

It is not the rail company's responsibility to chase and find travellers without tickets, it is the travellers responsibility to get a ticket before travelling, or, only if travelling from a station without facilities, board the train and pay the staff on board at the first opportunity.

 

There is also a strict liability offence of failing to obtain a ticket before boarding at a station where facilities are available to pay. (National Railway Byelaw 18.1 [2005]). If convicted, this carries the same level of fine, but is a non-recordable offence, meaning that although there is a record of conviction with the Magistrates Court, this is a lesser offence and will not show on a basic CRB check.

 

At Crewe there is a staffed station ticket office with 4 windows and there are also 4 self service ticket machines, so it is rare that there is genuinely no opportunity to pay before travelling.

 

There is currently a concerted effort by many TOCs to re-educate the travelling public and these companies are running 'inspector spot-check' exercises to detect and report offenders. There are frequently Police Officers in attendance to deal with any public order offences that may arise when travellers become less than co-operative, but it is the TOCs inspectors who have the authority to interview and report for prosecution so far as the travel offences are concerned.

 

It appears likely that your husband has been detected at one of these checks.

Edited by Old-CodJA

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Hello everyone

 

thank you once more for your replies and advice.

 

I have talked with OH, he has shown me quite a pile of tickets, he hasn't kept all of them, and doesn't use the service every day, but he does have a lot, which he has bought on the train itself. Almost all are paid for in cash to the conductor - they date back to over a year ago right up to the last few weeks, the more recent tickets were bought at the ticket booth on the station.

 

I've found some information about a season ticket, which although won't work out any cheaper because he doesn't use the train each day, will provide reassurance to me that all is as it should be, that he has paid his fare fairly and in advance, and will ensure that this doesn't happen again. I''ve insisted that he buys a season ticket tbh - otherwise he's out of the door. This whole matter is worrying me terribly as you can imagine. To say that i'm damned angry with him is putting it lightly, and he knows it.

 

He is usually on the dot with matters - bills, timekeeping etc., so I am shocked that he's in this situation.

 

Just to clarify, the letter from TIL states that they advise OH of the 'proposed action and to provide the opportunity for any mitigation' ... it then refers to a possible prosecution saying 'these considerations may include whether any charge should allege a offence againt Railway Byelaws (2005) or, The Regulation of Railways Act 1889'.

 

If anyone is able give me some advice as to how to word a letter, i'd be very grateful. Also do you think that OH should send a letter to both TIL and the train company aswell?

 

kim

Edited by Kim72

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Hello everyone

 

thank you once more for your replies and advice.

 

I have talked with OH, he has shown me quite a pile of tickets, he hasn't kept all of them, and doesn't use the service every day, but he does have a lot, which he has bought on the train itself. Almost all are paid for in cash to the conductor - they date back to over a year ago right up to the last few weeks, the more recent tickets were bought at the ticket booth on the station.

 

I've found some information about a season ticket, which although won't work out any cheaper because he doesn't use the train each day, will provide reassurance to me that all is as it should be, that he has paid his fare fairly and in advance, and will ensure that this doesn't happen again. I''ve insisted that he buys a season ticket tbh - otherwise he's out of the door. This whole matter is worrying me terribly as you can imagine. To say that i'm damned angry with him is putting it lightly, and he knows it.

 

He is usually on the dot with matters - bills, timekeeping etc., so I am shocked that he's in this situation.

 

Just to clarify, the letter from TIL states that they advise OH of the 'proposed action and to provide the opportunity for any mitigation' ... it then refers to a possible prosecution saying 'these considerations may include whether any charge should allege a offence againt Railway Byelaws (2005) or, The Regulation of Railways Act 1889'.

 

If anyone is able give me some advice as to how to word a letter, i'd be very grateful. Also do you think that OH should send a letter to both TIL and the train company aswell?

 

kim

 

He should write a letter (to Transport Investigations Ltd) apologising unreservedly for his actions and confirmation that this will not happen again in the future.

 

I would strongly recommend that you enclose a cheque or postal order for between £75 and £100, and make it clear that the funds are to cover any "administrative costs" that he has caused them to incur as a result of his actions.

 

That letter should be sent by recorded delivery, so you are able to verify they have received the letter.

 

It will do no harm to write an (additional) apology letter to Arriva Trains Wales.

 

You can address this to:

 

Prosecutions & Debt Recovery Department

Arriva Trains Wales

St. Mary's House

47 Penarth Road

Cardiff

CF10 5DJ

 

Arriva Trains Wales are looking to "re-educate" the travelling public at the moment, so I am quite confident this can be resolved by taking the above action, and paying their administrative costs. In the future, once the "education" phase has passed, it will not be so easy.

 

If they do not accept his apology, it is my opinion that a Section 5(3a) Regulation of Railways Act 1889 is most likely, because, if he had not encountered the ticket inspectors at his destination, he would have simply left the station without paying, despite passing multiple opportunities to pay. This will result in a criminal record, if convicted at Magistrates' Court, along with a fine between £300 and £500, (theoretical maximum is £1000), along with costs of around £100 and a Victim Surcharge of £30-£50.

 

Pretty much the same sort of penalties and costs if he was to be convicted of breaching Railway Byelaw 18 (Transport Act 2000/Railways Act 2005).

 

I wouldn't be too angry with him though. 1000s of people are caught each year doing exactly the same thing across the UK and it is usually just poor judgement or "heat of the moment" thinking.

Edited by firstclassx

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He should write a letter (to Transport Investigations Ltd) apologising unreservedly for his actions and confirmation that this will not happen again in the future.

 

I would strongly recommend that you enclose a cheque or postal order for between £75 and £100, and make it clear that the funds are to cover any "administrative costs" that he has caused them to incur as a result of his actions.

 

That letter should be sent by recorded delivery, so you are able to verify they have received the letter.

 

It will do no harm to write an (additional) apology letter to Arriva Trains Wales.

 

You can address this to:

 

Prosecutions & Debt Recovery Department

Arriva Trains Wales

St. Mary's House

47 Penarth Road

Cardiff

CF10 5DJ

 

Arriva Trains Wales are looking to "re-educate" the travelling public at the moment, so I am quite confident this can be resolved by taking the above action, and paying their administrative costs. In the future, once the "education" phase has passed, it will not be so easy.

 

If they do not accept his apology, it is my opinion that a Section 5(3a) Regulation of Railways Act 1889 is most likely, because, if he had not encountered the ticket inspectors at his destination, he would have simply left the station without paying, despite passing multiple opportunities to pay. This will result in a criminal record, if convicted at Magistrates' Court, along with a fine between £300 and £500, (theoretical maximum is £1000), along with costs of around £100 and a Victim Surcharge of £30-£50.

 

Pretty much the same sort of penalties and costs if he was to be convicted of breaching Railway Byelaw 18 (Transport Act 2000/Railways Act 2005).

 

I wouldn't be too angry with him though. 1000s of people are caught each year doing exactly the same thing across the UK and it is usually just poor judgement or "heat of the moment" thinking.

 

thank you firstclassx, I appreciate the time and effort you're taking in advising on this.

 

Should he add the amount of the train ticket to the figure you advise? I realise that it's a small amount but feel that this might show additional effort to make amends on OH's part.

 

kim

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It is always difficult to give direct definitive advice on these matters and my understanding is that is not the purpose of CAG to do so. I am not suggesting that firstclassx's post is wrong, but I think another perspective might be valuable.

 

I believe that the purpose of the forum is to allow voluntary suggestions from those of us who have experience of dealing with these matters added to a concensus of opinion of other readers, with the aim of informing the OP in such a way as to assist them in deciding on what action to take.

 

We only ever have the OPs version of events and to give definitive answers as to what action should be taken, or will be successful, really isn't possible from a one-sided assessment of any case

 

I am not suggesting that you have not been entirely clear in what you understand happened when your husband was reported, nor that he has withheld anything from you, I am just making clear that I think we should always remember the inspector's report will undoubtedly contain more precise details and may therefore differ from the account we have here.

 

Your husband should certainly reply to the letter that he has received and in sending his apology, he may offer to make recompense for his actions if he wishes to do so, but I never advocate sending a cheque for any particular sum with a first reply. This is for no other reason than the simple fact that you may well offer more than might otherwise be accepted. Agreed, the sum offered may also be less than the company will accept, but we frequently see posts from users who have been able to settle first time matters for much less than three figures.

 

That is not to say that any offer to settle should not be made if he chooses. In fact it is not unheard of that your husband may be fortunate enough to get away with just a warning if there is anything wrong in the inspector's report, so why guarantee that he will pay more than might be necessary if they agree to such a course of action?

 

The company is never obliged to accept settlement in any case and firstclassx is right to suggest your husband is only one of a great many who are, or have been in this position.

Edited by dx100uk
HEHE changed GAG to Cag - nice one OC - dx

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thank you Old-CodJA

 

My husband's explained what happened on that day in more detail, he's told me what was said during his conversation with the member of staff.

 

Knowing OH as I do, I believe that he's genuinely thought that it was okay to buy his ticket on the train. Having said that I realise that him not knowing this isn't valid defense on his part. I asked my mother this question, and she knows nothing about the letter my husband has received, and she said she pays the conductor on the train, she said that she has very rarely bought her ticket at the station. My mother's in her 70s, she uses the train occasionally to travel to visit her sister and to take her grandsons on visits and days out. Both my husband and my mother have purchased tickets over the phone on occasion, and my husband has bought tickets for us as a family on the station, but in these instances the journeys were much further; to the coast, and to travel to a holiday destination. My mother was horrified when I told her that she had, in fact, broken the law. I too, until I learned otherwise from the responses in this thread, thought that it was perfectly okay to buy a ticket once boarded.

 

I agree that TOCs need to be 're-educating' the travelling public with regard to methods used to purchase tickets. Given he seriousness with regard to the possible consequences to customers/passengers perhaps TOCs could make their customers aware of legislation. Perhaps handing out flyers to customers as they start or end their journey, placing a notice in local newspapers, or may be printing a short explanation on the back of tickets. In addition a recorded announcement during journeys would reinforce the point too. Just a thought.

Edited by Kim72

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A part of the problem lies in the fact that so few people seem to be taking any notice of re-education campaigns. FCC, Northern and others have been known to be taking a hard line for several years, but continue to report considerable numbers of offenders daily. It is a sad fact that Arriva put up new posters at stations and have been handing out leaflets at key locations for 18 months and yet nothing much seems to change. These signs & leaflets make clear that it is only acceptable to buy a ticket on train if there are no pre-purchase facilities at your boarding station and that, if boarding at a station without ticket facilities, the traveller must declare their journey and pay the guard at the first opportunity.

 

I know that there are some people who have made genuine mistakes because of some inconsistencies between companies and networks, but this cannot be the case where a traveller uses the same service several days a week. In the main we all know that if we wish to travel by train we have to pay the fare due and if there is an open ticket office at the station where we start our journey, it has always been the case that we need to make time to use it.

 

Most of the legislation was framed in the middle of the 19th century and has been continually reviewed and updated where necessary. More recently the various Railways Acts 1993 - 2005 have strengthened legislation further and it simply isn't practical to erect signs at all access points to the railway that list all possible offences (there are too many). Back in 1989 the then British Rail introduced legislation that created a penalty for people who fail to get a ticket from the booking office, or machine, before boarding trains to make short journeys. Since privatisation of the network that process has been extended to many other areas, but not all. If the traveller fails to sucessfully appeal, or pay, the penalty the normal course of action is for the TOC to revert to the legislation that has always been in place and proceed to prosecution of the offender. In areas where penalty fares are not in operation, it is always the case that if a booking facility is available at the station, the traveller must use it unless specifically instructed otherwise, or risks prosecution under National Railway Byelaw 18.

 

I understand your comment regarding printing on the back of tickets and recorded announcments on train and sympathise to a point, but once a traveller has bought a ticket, or boarded a train, it's too late. Signs directing travellers to ticket offices and / or self-service machines have always been in place, but the fact is that travellers frequently ignore them. As you rightly say, ignorance of legislation is not a defence and few if any travellers will succeed in avoiding conviction with 'I didn't know' as a response to the Court if they have walked past an open ticket office with a big sign saying 'Tickets for immediate travel', or words to that effect. Magistrates may well treat that as mitigation when deciding the penalty, but not as a defence to the charge.

 

The TOCs do listen to the complaints made by the general public who for a very long time have been saying that 21st century Railways should be more like the Airlines and to some extent, it is that which has lead to a confusing proliferation of ticket types, but the major difference is that none of us expect to board a plane to travel without first paying the appropriate fare.

 

Frequently it is the case that where a traveller is reported for the first time, if that traveller writes with an apology and offers to recompense the company for the fare and costs incurred, the TOC may allow the matter to be closed with a warning. There is no obligation on the TOC to do so, but they will normally give it serious consideration.

Edited by Old-CodJA
  • Haha 1

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Old-CodJa, thank you again.

 

As you say, and I reckon that it's the inconsistency between not only TOC's but from station to station. In my H's case there's a ticket counter at one but not the other, so on the occasions that he travelled from his home station he bought his ticket from the conductor, which btw has never been a problem - my husband just catches the attention of the conductor and purchsed his ticket(s) on the spot.

 

A while ago, he finished work earlier than usual, and boarded the train at Crewe, tried to purchase his ticket home,only to be told by the conductor that although that train is on the correct route it doesn't stop at that station - just passes through. So, on the conductor's advice, my husband purchased a ticket to the station (in the next county) from which he could travel home as soon and as quickly as possible -they had quite a giggle that day!!!

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