Garage not accepting responsibility

[PingPong64]

Dear all. Great to have found this forum. Im really hoping I can find some sort of direction.

 

My problem has been on going for about 4 months now, almost from day one of purchasing the car. Its a Toyota Celica 2006 model.

 

To cut a very long story short here ..... the car was purchased, knowingly by me, with non standard alloys.

 

However, from day one I noticed issues with handling.

 

This was reported several times to the garage.

 

After the first recall I was told that there was nothing wrong but also that a 4 wheel alignment check had been done.

This turned out to be untrue.

I did not receive any paperwork clarifying this.

 

On the second recall I was told the car was ok still, but a (another) 4 wheel alignment check had been done and found some adjustment was needed,

proven with the steering wheel now pointing straight.

I can only assume that the first time it was not done as they indicated.

 

Problem still there .

 

.. basically the car feels unstable when at speeds above 50mph and tends to wander and jump depending on road conditions.

Having done my own investigations,

Ive since learned that the tyres are over stretched on the wheels which are in turn not the correct size for the car.

 

The tyres are the original and true size stretched over wheels 30mm wider than standard.

 

When I reported this to the garage they told me that the car was safe and that "their" tyre centre said the tyres fitted (205s) would be what they would fit on these wheels (8J).

 

This must be untrue as I have since been to this tyre centre and they have told me that they would not fit this size tyre to that wheel and put this in writing.

 

I have since learned that should the correct tyre size be fitted to this wheel (235s) then it would clash with the bodywork in certain conditions.

Therefore I take it this makes the car unsafe.

 

The garage concerned are not accepting responsibility for this whatsoever,

even though clearly they have been lying and avoiding communication from both myself and the finance company who "own" the car.

 

What I could do with knowing is am I in the right here.

 

Yes, I accept I knew the wheels were non standard, but is it my responsibility to check they are correct for the car?

 

Surely this is the garage's responsibility to ensure that the wheels

(and car are fit for the purpose it was sold for and therefore if the wheels are too big than the manufacturer recommend would that not be their call?

 

Or is this my call simply because I new the wheels where non standard.

 

The tyres are too narrow for the wheel so there is not enough grip on the road, therefore making it unstable.

 

Any advice would be very much appreciated. Im about to go to Trading Standards on this, but if anyone here knows anything then please do advise.

 

Thank you

 

Martin (Oxford)

[oddjobbob]

The basic question is 'would the car pass an MOT test as it is?'

 

I'm afraid to say that if it does / would then I doubt there's much you can do.

 

Toyota spend millions on making sure that the wheels and tyres they fit to new cars are configured so that the best handling / braking / ride compromise is achieved.

 

Then someone comes along thinking it will look better with some nice big alloys on it.

 

Which it does but handles like a drunk camel on roller skates.

 

It it will pass an MOT (which is the stance you'll probably get from the seller) then a government agency has declared the car safe to use on the road.

 

Which means there's very little you can do I'm afraid.

[raydetinu]

take it a vosa/council test site for a check and see what they say.

yes tyres should be in the correct range for a certain width wheel.

most tyre manufaturers say 225/235 for an 8j, however 205 is permissable.

the thing is manufactueres do a lot of testing to get the handling right, suspension set up, with a certain wheel/tyre size and as yiou asy somebody puts larger diameter wheels and bigger tyres, which can make it handle and ride differently.

The basic thing to check is that the rolling radius has not changed dramatically ( within about 2-3% is normal ) otherwisw that upsets the gearing as well.

so what you need to check is that rolling radius of the original wheel diameter and tyre profile ( munfacturer supplied ) does not differ much from what you actually have on the car now.

plenty of check guides on the web to check when you know the sizes.

From what you describe its called tramlining, but usaually happens with large wheels and very low profile tyres. ( 35 or 40 profile ).

[scaniaman]

What would worry me about these tyres is that if you have an accident would insurance company pay out---also do they know that car is fitted with non standard wheels / tyres?

[dx100uk]

i wonder where SOGA fits into this.

 

not fit for purpose.

 

certainly any insurance co. would not cough as its an un-notified modification.

 

agree with the suggestion to take it to a vosa/council MOT centre.

 

dx

[PingPong64]

The insurance aspect has been a massive issue in all this. Consequently I have taken the car of the road. I will give them a call this morning to chat about this issue. Even if legally the tyres are permissible 205s are not recommended through the continental tyres guidelines for 8j wheels.

The car drives fine up to about 50mph but after that if the road is uneven it handles like a boat and when braking becomes quite concerning.

 

Quite simply there isn't enough grip on the roads to support that width of wheel.

[oddjobbob]

the insurance is a totally different question from whether you can get any money back from the seller.

 

if the car will pass an mot, then the seller will quite rightly say that they sold you a car that is safe an legal... and it is, because an independent mot test says so... the fact that the tyres are too wide etc probably won't affect the mot.

 

so your sole remedy is to put the correct size wheels and tyres on it and pay for that yourself.

[sailor sam]

Agree with DX here. OP is running around un-necessary circles. Car must be supplied fit for the purpose and of satisfactory quality. OP should get the thing interdependently checked (pref by VOSA) and if it is established wheels are incorrect, then get the seller to rectify.

[oddjobbob]

No the whole point is being missed here. The OP says the garage are not accepting responsibility.

 

Indeed for what?

 

Their stance will be (when contacted) that the car will pass an MOT test and is therefore safe and sound to be on the road.

 

The fact that the alloys / tyres are non standard (which the OP states he was aware of before buying) will most likely not affect an MOT test result, as long as the tyres have adequate tread and thee is no excess ply ni the suspension and steering then it will pass.

 

The seller can rightly claim that a government agency has declared the car fit to be on the road.

 

This is NOT the seller's fault, it's the fault of whatever idiot decided they knew better than toyota about which tyres and wheels suited the car best.

 

I dont tihnk this is a problem that the seller will or should fix, it is NOT the seller's fault.

[Kiki1]

Even if legally the tyres are permissible 205s are not recommended through the continental tyres guidelines for 8j wheels.

The car drives fine up to about 50mph but after that if the road is uneven it handles like a boat and when braking becomes quite concerning.

 

Quite simply there isn't enough grip on the roads to support that width of wheel.

 

I doubt anyone outside endurance racing would be able to absolutely confirm the change of running characteristics of a car at 50mph on a normal road is down to a 225 tyre exchange to a 205.

 

Am I right in thinking the wheel diameter has been altered from standard ? (hence the earlier comment about '225 tyres hitting the bodywork ?')

 

If so then you could always put them on eBay. There will always be some idiot that thinks they are the way to go and can only enhance the cars value. They might even do a swop for the standards with cash your way.

[sailor sam]

No the whole point is being missed here. The OP says the garage are not accepting responsibility.

 

Indeed for what?

 

Their stance will be (when contacted) that the car will pass an MOT test and is therefore safe and sound to be on the road.

 

The fact that the alloys / tyres are non standard (which the OP states he was aware of before buying) will most likely not affect an MOT test result, as long as the tyres have adequate tread and thee is no excess ply ni the suspension and steering then it will pass.

 

The seller can rightly claim that a government agency has declared the car fit to be on the road.

 

This is NOT the seller's fault, it's the fault of whatever idiot decided they knew better than toyota about which tyres and wheels suited the car best.

 

I dont tihnk this is a problem that the seller will or should fix, it is NOT the seller's fault.

 

Yes but will it? Just because the OP was aware that the car had non-standard alloy wheels does not mean he has accepted the car with wheels which are a potential MOT failure. The seller is responsible should the wheels/tyres deem to be totally unsuitable to the extent that it would not pass an MOT.

[oddjobbob]

if they have sufficient tread and there is no excess play in the steering and suspension and they don't foul the bodywork then yes in all likelihood it will.

 

they may well make a note on the mot eg 'non standard tyres / weels fitted' but there is no actual 50 mph plus road test on an mot.

 

unless it fails on something else that is.

 

 

and if a mot station says it's a pass then its road legal and the seller will wash his hands of it.

 

and rightly so, no doubt a major selling point for the op were the swish looking alloys and low profile tyres when he viewed it.

 

tough.

 

he's best off ebaying them as suggested and buying some standard kit with the money.

[stu007]

Hi

 

The only way to independantly verify if the tyres would pass an MOT would be as has been previously stated to take the vehicle to VOSA centre and get their independant opinion on whether it will pass an MOT as they are the ones that will probably take any concerns further from their side if anything verified and OP having an independantly verified report to hit the seller with so to speak to get this issue rectified by the seller at no cost to the OP if the seller co-operates that is.

[PingPong64]

....no doubt a major selling point for the op were the swish looking alloys and low profile tyres when he viewed it.

 

tough.

 

he's best off ebaying them as suggested and buying some standard kit with the money.

 

Hi. Thanks for the feedback (to all).

 

Hopefully I can clarify a few things.

 

Firstly, OddJobBob, you make some good valid points but also some incorrect assumptions. The swish looking alloys were not a selling point. Low profiles are standard on this car, as they are on most sports cars. I bought this car on the basis that its the last of the model and therefore had a few manufacturer options as standard (i.e. HD lights, leather interior and sunroof), looked in amazing condition, had very low mileage and a full Toyota service history. I was pleased it had different alloys for the sole reason that standard Celica wheels corrode very quickly. I accepted they were non standard when purchasing it.

 

The garage initially were very cooperative with my concerns about the handling. However, when you are told something has been checked over, then told its fine (but with no written proof) but the resulting drive proves nothing has changed, and then you return it back for a second checking and then you are told it needed some alighment adjustment and heres the written proof you start to wonder whats going on. I had immediate doubts whether anything had been done on the first check up. The car was sat in exactly the same position and stance as when I left it there. I was told the car had been valeted as standard. Then why was it dusty and showing muddy foot prints. Doubts start to enter your head about what you have purchased. Particularly when the handling is still the same. Dont get me wrong, its a lovely car but this is fast becoming personal now between me and the garage so Im having to step back a little and let the finance company deal with it so I dont lose perspective of what Im complaining about.

 

Its very possible that I cannot do anything. The MoT point is very valid of course but there is a clear handling issue with the current tyres on the replacement 8J wheels that is not comfortable for the car. From the garages point of view they are probably clear. The wheels either need wider tyres on it or the car needs a standard alloy set up put back on.

 

Normally this would not have been a problem for me but the handling is so poor at times that its dangerous, regardless of whether the MoT says what it says. Sometimes things are not so black and white, there are many areas in law where this line can be taken but it doesn't mean the situation is fine.

 

Putting a neutral head on this, and agreeing with OJB and many others here, the obvious thing to do is to sell the current wheels on ebay and put the funds towards a new correct set of wheels. This is probably what I will do. But for the next few days I will see what happens via the finance company. Unfortunately the issue has gathered momentum simply because of the relationship between me and the garage which has got more and more sour. There were other issues about the car that I felt were hidden from me at the point of sale and so therefore doubts have continually increased. Its not just the wheels.

 

So, there we go ... Im taking a step back. If the finance company can get an agreement with the garage to supply replacement wheels, then I will be happy to take them. If not, then I will let it go and treat it as an experience.

 

Thanks to OJB and others for your replies, much appreciated and helped me come to a conclusion here and looking at it from an alternative angle.

[Kiki1]

Low profile wheels ?

 

That could be the reason it handles like a supermarket trolley

[oddjobbob]

Hi Ping Pong

 

Fully accept all you say.

 

What I'm trying to say is that even if it handles like a drunk camel on roller skates, it it passes an MOT test then the garage's stance will not be ni your favour as they can claim they have sold you a safe car.

 

I wasn't trying to be difficult just pointing out that all the talk on here of SOGA, etc will in all likelihood get you nowhere.

 

The point here too is that you knew the alloys / tyres weren't standard which does weaken any case slightly.

 

TBQH I'd get them on ebay as soon as you can and put standard wheels on it.

 

Your call tho...!!

[raydetinu]

good luck with that, hope they get it sorted.

have you checked the wheel/tyre size combination, that they are near the rolling radius they should be?

also what is the actual tyre size as fitted? aspect ratio.

could be other things I suppose, duff shock absorber!! that could lead to handling probs.

[PingPong64]

Hi Ping Pong

 

Fully accept all you say.

 

What I'm trying to say is that even if it handles like a drunk camel on roller skates, it it passes an MOT test then the garage's stance will not be ni your favour as they can claim they have sold you a safe car.

 

I wasn't trying to be difficult just pointing out that all the talk on here of SOGA, etc will in all likelihood get you nowhere.

 

The point here too is that you knew the alloys / tyres weren't standard which does weaken any case slightly.

 

TBQH I'd get them on ebay as soon as you can and put standard wheels on it.

 

Your call tho...!!

 

HI OddJobBob, dont worry, wasnt thinking you were being difficult. Have appreciated your input greatly, as I have other people too. I needed some input to my issue here to enable me to see things from a different angle, so honestly, you were fine. If everyone agreed with me then Im not going to get anywhere further than where I am now.

 

My argument with the garage is one of those areas which can be seen either way, apart from the shoddy after care, yes I knew the alloys were non standard but I did not know they were wider than the recommended size given for this car. I believe, and always have done, that they should have checked and advised me on this before selling it to me. They are a toyota franchise and therefore have guidelines to follow to keep to the manufacturers standards. Therefore the car they sold me did not meet up with those standards.

 

I may well be on a losing slant here, who knows, but I will give it a shot this week with the finance company and what they come up with. If its a struggle then I will leave it alone, get a set of standard alloys, sell the wide ones and then at the end of this probably sell the car anyway. Its surplus to requirements now and I really could do with this being settled. Its become a moral issue too as I dont want to sell it with these wheels on.

 

Raydetinu - The wheel size is 8J. The recommended tyre width are 235s. The tyres currently fitted are 205s. These are not illegal but are not recommended. In some countries they are illegal but for some strange reason over here they are not. Essentially, the tyres are overstretched and therefore it looks like the wheels are protruding out of the tyres.

[Kiki1]

could be other things I suppose, duff shock absorber!! that could lead to handling probs.

 

A duff absorber would show up in the MOT, as would almost all other defects leading to pig on rollersakete handling.

[raydetinu]

more intersted in the aspect ratio and wheel size, as said ultra low progiles can lead to this tramlining effect.

[ericsbrother]

Does VOSA say it is roadworthy? As suggested ask them. If they say yes then buy some now tyres and sell the others on ebay as suggested. If VOSA say no then you go back to the garage with your repport ans ask them what they are going to do about it and if they say "nothing" then you can bite their a**e for selling an unroadworthy vehicle and all the other bits you mentioned will be grist to the mill.

[markmarcos]

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