Speed camera no speed limit

[T25]

Got flashed by a camera doing 36 in a supposed 30 zone.I had been on a road where the speed limit was 40,but after a junction with traffic lights,the road had narrowed and had now become a 30 zone.There was no signage to indicate this change of speed,just a camera and a camera sign.I assumed I was below the limit,but got flashed and have received a PCN.

 

Saw this on another site and wondered if it applied:

 

There is no obligation for a 30 mph speed limit to be sign posted, except when you enter it from a section of road where the speed limit is not 30 mph. 30 mph is the national speed limit. The Courts will take the view that you should be driving on the basis that the limit is 30 mph. Accordingly, unless you can show that there was good reason to believe that the limit was not 30 mph (ie you had been in a higher speed limit area and there were no signs) there would not normally be grounds to dispute the allegation, simply because there were no "30 mph" signs.

[Guest]

here's a general 'quick answer'

https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits

[T25]

Both stretches of the road were within the city and both had street lighting.One stretch (a dual carriageway),the limit was 40 and signage was present,the next stretch(single carriageway),the limit was 30 and no signage was present.

[dx100uk]

but it had street lights at the right spacing i would expect?

 

dx

[Guest]

no more than 200 yards apart. then is a 'restricted road' subject to 30, unless signed/directed otherwise.

thinking aloud, the dual road was set at 40 but when the dual ceased, then would the 40 cease? so, from then unless signed otherwise would then be 30 as built up and/or street lighting? if for eg though the 40 road was the same as the continuing road, then may be arguable as post #1 says re new sign? just a thought.

from what you say though t25, it seems as if that fixed camera has been strategically placed! no doubt to earn a few quid! sounds as if it must have been challenged before, so as its still there it may be that it is legit?

Edited January 10, 2013 by Ford

[crem]

IMO it would be an acceptable defence that the change from 40 to 30 should have been clearly shown by a 30 sign on both sides of the road as you enter the new restriction. Equally while travelling on the same road in the opposite direction a change from 30 to 40 would need to be shown in the same manner. Typically these 2 signs would have been placed back-to-back on the same pole. Have you looked at the road from both directions and both sides at the area alleged to activate this change of speed?

 

Whilst the types of comment above may be broadly true regarding street lighting etc etc, it is clearly unrealistic for a moving driver to know, or measure, the distances between light post etc A change of limit, particularly if a driver is travelling on the same road, must be clearly shown for the driver to act on it.

 

The only exception that comes immediately to mind is where you are travelling on a NSL road which changes from dual carriageway to single and such a change is already specified in the highway code that (for a car) the dual limit is 70 and single carrige is 60 and drivers are expected to be aware of this and adjust their speed with no road sign required.

[Raykay]

If it is a road that originally went from 30 to 40, and then 30 again, has street lights, and is now all 30, all that was required was to remove the 40 signs.

[crem]

If it is a road that originally went from 30 to 40, and then 30 again, has street lights, and is now all 30, all that was required was to remove the 40 signs.

 

True, but I don't think that is what the OP is implying is the case here. In your example, effectively there is no longer a "change of limit" from 30 in the first place, which, presumably was already correctly signed on all entry points.

 

The OP is saying he was travelling on a road that had a legal limit of 40 signed. Then, at some unspecified point, the same road became a 30 limit with no advise to the motorist of this change.

 

It might be helpful if the OP could post a streetview link or tell us exactly where this is so we can have a look for reference.

[Guest]

some detailed info (double check for uptodateness)

http://www.abd.org.uk/speed_limit_signs.htm#intro

Edited January 11, 2013 by Ford

[crem]

some detailed info

http://www.abd.org.uk/speed_limit_signs.htm#intro

[/url]

 

Signs to indicate the beginning of a speed limit

 

Direction 8 of TSRGD sets out the requirements for the placing of signs to indicate the beginning of a restriction, requirement, prohibition or speed limit. The first paragraph of direction 8 lists the diagram numbers of the signs to which the direction applies, including diagrams 670 and 674 (See above). The other paragraphs relevant to speed limits are as follows:

(2)In accordance with the following provisions of this direction and the provisions of direction 9, appropriate signs to which this direction applies shall be placed to indicate the point at which a restriction, requirement, prohibition or speed limit applying to traffic on a road (in this direction and in direction 9 called the "relevant road") begins.

(3)Subject to paragraphs (4), (5) and (6) and to direction 9, a sign to which this direction applies shall be placed on the relevant road at or as near as practicable to the point referred to in paragraph (2) -

(a)where the relevant road has only one carriageway, on each side of that carriageway; or

(b)where the relevant road has more than one carriageway, on each side of each carriageway in relation to which the restriction, requirement, prohibition or speed limit begins.

 

 

This section seems to be the most relevant to the OPs description of the circumstances. We still haven't been told which road this all applies to so that we may view it for reference.

[T25]

O.K. I re-visited the road today and I found the 30 signs! The reason I missed them was because they are located immediately behind the traffic lights,which obscures them.The road in question is the A1,where it joins Archway road,here:

http://maps.google.com/maps?client=safari&rls=en&oe=UTF-8&q=archway+road+london&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x48761a4b96fef203:0xe7d955de021f6af2,Archway+Rd,+London,+UK&sa=X&ei=OKrwUIzJCpOM0wX7hYDwCQ&ved=0CJIBELYD

[Guest]

cant see it? wheres the camera? which way from the A?

[Migster]

I think they mean here.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=archway+road+london&ll=51.581763,-0.141449&spn=0.018774,0.111494&client=safari&oe=UTF-8&hnear=Archway+Rd,+London,+United+Kingdom&t=m&z=14&layer=c&cbll=51.581755,-0.157378&panoid=lY80f0ju6nGhSpKoUA7jFA&cbp=12,91.02,,0,0.38

[Guest]

cheers migster

see 30 signed on both sides of road, but where is the camera? is it way further down? map has gone pear shaped on me, looking at the sky atm!

[T25]

The camera is after the 30 sign about halfway up the next stretch of the A1,past the plumbing centre.

[crem]

I doubt there is any challenge going to be successful on "unclear or inadequate signage"

 

Looking at the road itself, as a driver I would have been quite surprised to NOT find a change of limit around that area. The area seems to change quite dramatically to being residential and commercial and, therefore, a 30 limit would have been the "norm". If they were keeping it as a 40 I would have been making a point of looking for the repeater/reminder signs and similar confirmation telltail signs.

Edited January 12, 2013 by crem

[renegadeimp]

Agreed. Those signs are pretty clear, no matter which of the 3 lanes you are in. You can see at least one, if not both clearly.

[Guest]

The camera is after the 30 sign about halfway up the next stretch of the A1,past the plumbing centre.

 

cheers.

the 40 has ceased, so there are the 30 signs. also no repeater 30 signs required after, and there was a camera sign. seems then overall a challenge would be unlikely to be successful.

good use of street view there.

Edited January 13, 2013 by Ford