a cancelled order has turned up - what to do?

[mickrick]

I placed an order with a German online music store in early December. a few days later I received an email from them to say the item was no longer available and to either cancel or order an alternative. As this was my son's main Christmas present, I ordered an alternative and replied to the email telling this. Unfortunately they charged me twice (2x £230) putting me into the red on my bank account and leaving us for a week with no money to live on.

 

Fast forward to Dec 27th when I received another email from this company to say they had shipped the original order and debited £251 from my account, again leaving us with very little money to last to pay day at the end of January.

 

I sent a reply saying the order had been cancelled and to refund the money immediately but they sent a further emaul (2 days later) to say I hadn't cancelled. I was able to provide evidence that I had but they ignored it.

 

Finally I rang them on Jan 2nd, to Germany, and told them I wanted a refund and when the order arrived I would consider it unsolicited and if they didn't come and collect it within 14 days of delivery I would dispose of it as I see fit.

 

The order arrived yesterday and I sent a final email to inform them of this.

 

So, what are my rights in this case?

[Conniff]

You must have paid using a card, so go to the bank and claim it back.

[mickrick]

They have refunded the money, but only after a week and me having to call Germany (3 times). I just want to know what to do if a) they tell me to take it to the post office and send it back to them or b) they don't do anything about getting it returned. I believe the law states they have 14 days from the delivery date to collect the goods.

[dx100uk]

unaware of any such law

 

where is this from?

 

dx

[mickrick]

Yes it appears you're right. After checking this out, it appears the item becomes the property of the recipient on delivery. But as I have offered the company the opportunity to collect the package, if they attempt to do that, where do I stand then?

 

Citizens Advice - Unsolicited goods

[dx100uk]

yes i would write or email

 

stating that they have 14 days to send someone to collect the goods

[parcel farce can be taked to do this - printing everything they need for a fee]

 

or send you resonable costs to enable you to return them.

 

dx

[mickrick]

Yeah I've already emailed them. They're in Germany though (Thomann) and I'm disabled so I can't take the package to the post office (its a guitar in a box about 5'x3'). I know they messed up badly first taking two payments for the alternative order and then the payment for the original order they should've cancelled (there is no automated cancellation system on their website, everything has to be done either by email or phone) but I'm not that hard-hearted that I would hold on to their goods, even if they are mine now legally.

 

However, a gesture of goodwill on my part should definitely be reciprocated given the position my family was placed in financially not once but twice plus the cost of phone calls to Germany during peak times.

[dx100uk]

if they use parcel farce

 

they will come to get it

 

dx

[mickrick]

I have added a ps to the email:

 

I should add that, under the Consumer Protection (Distance Selling) Regulations I am not obliged to return the goods to you and I am offering this as a gesture of goodwill.

 

However, there is still the matter of phone charges, bank charges, the time and inconvenience of being without any money and having to borrow from family members while waiting for my money to be refunded, plus my own personal time spent emailing and ringing Thomann in an attempt to have my money returned.

 

This applies both to this order and order xxxx.xxxxxx.

[ericsbrother]

It is not unsolicted goods but a cancelled contract.

 

Hopefully they will arrange its return at their expense (their obligation to do so under DSR's).

 

Now, with regard to claiming for your losses due to being put into an overdraft due to them taking money out of your account twice.

 

Trickier becuse once you have handed over your card details you have authorised them to help themselves to any amount they feel like at any time they like

and all you can do is rely on them not to abuse this authority and make chargebacks against the company when they do.

 

Have a word with your bank as soon as possible and get them to cancel their charges for the overdraft, explaining what has happened.

 

You wont get any money for your phone calls and time unless the company shows a bit of decency in this respect so be honest about the real cost of chasing this up.

 

Again, the law allows time for a company to sort out this mess that is much longer than most people would think reasonable

so keep it simple and clear as to what you expect.

 

UK law governs how they should act and EU enabling legislation for the Distance Selling regs cover germany so they cant claim things are different there.

[dx100uk]

sorry...

 

handing over your card details DOES NOT, give them the right to take what they want when they want!

[mickrick]

It was paid via paypal so they don't have access to my bank account.

 

When I was talking to one of their managers she said that when I made the payment by paypal, I had given them authorisation to take the money. However, when I replied that sending an email cancelling the order was a withdrawal of that authorisation she replied "you are absolutely correct".

 

They have emailed me three times asking for the guitar to be returned (at their expense) and have steadfastly ignored my request to deal with my concerns.

 

And as I bank with Santander, its easier said than done getting them to cancel charges, as we all know.

[citizenB]

Mick, is there a Head office/Registered address on their website ? I think you need to escalate the complaint - mark your email Official Complaint and address it to the MD/CEO.

 

Simply bullet point what has happened to date and add that you are not refusing to return the goods. Point out that not only are you disabled, but you have already been put to a great deal of inconvenience already.

 

They must arrange via a courier to come and collect the goods from your home.

 

You could also add that you are considerably out of pocket on this transaction and you are not a happy customer.

 

HTH

[mickrick]

Cheers for that CitizenB. I certainly have no problem returning the item but I know that when I do, the tumbleweeds will start.

[ericsbrother]

sorry...

 

handing over your card details DOES NOT, give them the right to take what they want when they want!

The terms for using Visa or Mastercard say once you give someone your card details Visa and MC are obliged to pay any monies requested. This basically does allow that but obviously there are lots of laws that enable you to get restitution when that authorisation is misused. Having paid by paypal you have SENT the money. They are in a position to refund immediately but they have not taken payment so it is not the same as authorising payment with a card. you may have used a card to pay paypal but that is like giving cash to a courier, it is not their money and the courier cant demand it from you. the instigator is you rather than the other party.

[dx100uk]

as paypal allow chargeback,

and cannot stop it

and even warn on their website that it can happen

 

i doubt its true.

 

dx

[caro]

The terms for using Visa or Mastercard say once you give someone your card details Visa and MC are obliged to pay any monies requested. This basically does allow that but obviously there are lots of laws that enable you to get restitution when that authorisation is misused. Having paid by paypal you have SENT the money. They are in a position to refund immediately but they have not taken payment so it is not the same as authorising payment with a card. you may have used a card to pay paypal but that is like giving cash to a courier, it is not their money and the courier cant demand it from you. the instigator is you rather than the other party.

 

I have to disagree with you on this. They can only take the payment you've authorised unless you've given a continuous payment authority. At one time these could not be cancelled but this has now been resolved.

[steampowered]

I doubt the post office would accept such a parcel the size of a guitar. I hope someone will correct me if I am wrong, but I believe parcels of this size cannot be sent through the regular mail system and have to be sent through a courier company. I believe the Royal Mail's courier company, Parcel Force, do not operate through Post Offices but will collect the package from your house.

 

This sounds like a small business rather than a big one: it may be that they are being difficult because they don't know how things work in the UK. You could try getting a quote from the Parcel Force website and sending them a link. They should be sorting it out, but realistically if you make it easy for them you might get a quicker response.

[dx100uk]

parcel farce will collect

 

see their site

 

but not his problem

 

i often buy stuff that way

 

just phone parcefarce and ask them to collect and deliver

they do everything even come with labels etc

all YOU need to do is pack it.

 

the service is on their website

 

its not the post office [royal mail]

 

dx

[Northernpug]

I've used Thomanns myself and know lots of other people who have bought goods from them due to being involved in the music industry. Mains reasons we buy from them is that usually they are cheaper than buying in the UK, they provide a good service and a 3 year warranty. I have known several people that have had defective goods and Thomanns have always been very good at either replacing the item if it was a small one without asking for the original back or arranging for a courier to pick up the goods for repair or replacement. Very often they just send a new replacement.

 

Reason I am posting this is to highlight that they usually try their hardest to provide a good service, a lot better than you get from many UK retailers. They are not a small company. They are quite large and send goods all over the world.

 

Having dealt with them, I feel that the best approach is to be polite and courteous and they will respond in a similar way. May be difficult as it seems they messed up badly on this one but it wouldn't surprise me if they turn round and say keep the goods. I note that they have returned the extra payments they took so if they haven't replied about collecting it, send an email telling them in the absence of a reply you take it that they agree to you keeping it as compensation for the inconvenience caused and unless you hear from them within 14 days will take it that the goods are yours to do with as you please.

[mickrick]

So I emailed the MD, Hans Thomann. I explained everything that happened, from the initial order being placed to the original order arriving with me. Nothing left out, no embellishments and no finger pointing. This is the reply I got:

"Dear

thank you very much for your email and your feedback.

I am sorry that these problems have occurred, I will talk to the head of our International Sales why there was a double shipment.

Mit freundlichem Gruß Best regards"

 

 

This doesn't sound like a company that places Customer Service high on its list of priorities.

[mickrick]

Northernpug - I had used Thomann previously, but I prefer to buy my gear closer to home or used from reliable sources (I bought my Nord Stage from Paul Beard, Robbie Williams' keyboard player and musical director) as I know I won't have too far to go should a problem arise. But for guitars etc, they are definitely the cheapest by a country mile. As for CS though, they score pretty badly.

 

The very first purchase I made from them was for an Epiphone Dot Studio Worn Cherry, again for my son who was 10 at the time and buying it with money he'd saved from his birthday and Christmas. This was a limited edition and even used was being sold at a much higher price than Thomann was charging new.

 

After a couple of months, 2 of the frets started lifting and the high E string was snagging. Thomann arranged return to base repair at their expense. If you read the gumph on their website you will see they pride themselves on their guitar repair workshops. However, my son's guitar was away 6 weeks before I was told the guitar had been returned to Epiphone for repair, deemed unrepairable and was no longer available so his money was refunded (a further 3 weeks later after they tried to give me store credit instead of a refund). And to add insult to injury, with the € to £ rate he lost almost £10 into the bargain. By this stage the guitar was no longer available anywhere so his pride and joy was just... gone.. Soon afterwards though, one turned up on Thomann's site as "B" grade stock and at a higher price than my son had paid for his. Makes you wonder.

 

He had to buy a different guitar, which he also picked himself - an Epiphone Riviera Custom P93 Goldtop with very limited gold hardware inc a Bigsby tremolo system which he'd lusted after for ages, so he was happy in the end with the outcome.