Obesity: Fat People Could Face Benefit Cuts

[fletch70]

By the way does anyone know why i can not edit my posts ?

[estellyn]

Hi everyone.

Well before i get banned for arguing let me just say the reason i asked about the non Israeli Jews is because Judaism tends to be a racial mix, so it would be interesting to see if the incidence of heart disease was as high in say new York Jews (huge community) . If there is,is their diet similar, if not is there another correcting factor. Do you see what i mean?

As you say we move on,when margerine was lauded we did not know the difference between mono, poly. hydrogenated. fats.

I remember the rise in margerine, it was fairly soon argued that the old style ones were as bad if not worse for you than butter.

It is true that for every study there is one that gives opposite results. Wine is good for you but it rots the liver. Alcohol is bad so why aren't all the poles Russians and Ukrainians dead?

Estellyn, i was just being impatient as you said tomorrow but wasn't having a go.

I suppose we will have to agree to differ although if i was given statins i would ask why. In fact when my ex was first prescribed them her gp said he wouldn't have but ethics stopped him contradicting a consultant.

 

We can agree to disagree. A lot of the science is difficult for those with a non science background to trawl through, so I expect that until the establishment issues new guidance, most won't change their mind on the issue.

 

I too would not have margerine in my house, or seed oils, or any low fat processed rubbish, or any processed rubbish. I think we can't go too wrong eating foods that haven't been highly processed or had anything added - but that's just me.

[fletch70]

Lol by the looks of it the science is difficult for the scientists to agree about so what hope is there for mere mortals.

 

I would use rapseed or nut oils at the right time but tend to stick to olive and sunflower. As for processed food, personally i would much rather have real foof but i sometimes suffer as i am not the food buyer in this house. I quite like pulses and beans with the odd bit of meat, porridge and my big weakness good bread. When i was single i was thinner fitter and healthier although i was probably pickled by the amount of red wine i drank.

I love bean and pulse carries with brown rice,but as a treat steak and mushrooms fried in butter and olive oil. Salads and a good dressing as well.

[estellyn]

Lol by the looks of it the science is difficult for the scientists to agree about so what hope is there for mere mortals.

 

I would use rapseed or nut oils at the right time but tend to stick to olive and sunflower. As for processed food, personally i would much rather have real foof but i sometimes suffer as i am not the food buyer in this house. I quite like pulses and beans with the odd bit of meat, porridge and my big weakness good bread. When i was single i was thinner fitter and healthier although i was probably pickled by the amount of red wine i drank.

I love bean and pulse carries with brown rice,but as a treat steak and mushrooms fried in butter and olive oil. Salads and a good dressing as well.

 

I'm not sure I can respond to this without being accused of making sweeping statements again

 

If I just say for For myself, I find rapeseed and nut oils to be pro inflammatory - too many omega6's, but nut oil is better than rapeseed, but only in very small amounts. For me sunflower oil = very bad. I use olive oil, butter, coconut oil - good fats. I don't eat sugar or grains, or artificial sweeteners. I hate beans, yuck! The rest of my restrictions are illness related rather than general health related. Suffice to say my diet is pretty restricted. I'm not a good dinner guest

[san_d]

Fletch, the Israeli paradox is the title of a 1996 study conducted by the Weizmann Institute of Science, Rehovot, Israel, about the dietary habits of Israeli Jews.

 

This is the original, it has been cited many times:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8960090

[fletch70]

San d I did read about the Israeli paradox and it discussed diet and mortality of Israeli Jews and also compared it not non Jewish. Israelis. My question was to try and suggest if there was a genetic connection. So if non Israeli Jews with a similar diet have the same rates you could reasonably conclude it is either diet or genetics. If the non Israeli with a different diet had the same results that may point to it being more genetic.

The problem was that they were comparing two different ethnic groups with different diets. It would be a bit like comparing sickle cell in both white and black Africans.

 

Estellyn since when did i accuse you of going off on one

[san_d]

Extra weight may protect heart failure patients 7 July, 2012

Obesity appears to have a protective affect for heart failure patients, according to a study by the University of California, Los Angeles.

 

Article in plain English here:

http://www.nursingtimes.net/nursing-practice/clinical-zones/public-health/extra-weight-may-protect-heart-failure-patients/5046751.article

 

Medical study here:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22497678

[fletch70]

So now we have an excuse to be fat!

 

I think just about every other article or paper i have read says obesity is a cause of heart disease.

 

I give up,now where's my bacon buttie, creamy coffee dripping on toast

[estellyn]

So now we have an excuse to be fat!

 

I think just about every other article or paper i have read says obesity is a cause of heart disease.

 

I give up,now where's my bacon buttie, creamy coffee dripping on toast

 

Sadly journalists and doctors confuse cause with effect. Obesity is associated with heart disease in the same way windscreen wipers moving is associated with umbrellas - in the latter example no one would see windscreen wipers moving and see umbrellas about and assume that umbrellas can cause windscreen wipers to move - both are prompted by rain falling. The same with obesity and heart disease - they are associated, there is no causal link proved, but my money is on poor diet being a cause.

[fletch70]

Sorry Estyllen. I should have said obesity is a contributing factor,or at least in everything i have read. Bad English.

I was of course taking the pee, one day being overweight contributes the next day it is good.

I kind of agree it's more likely to be poor diet but not all obese people have a poor diet,they just consume more calories than they need. For whatever reason.

[estellyn]

Sorry Estyllen. I should have said obesity is a contributing factor,or at least in everything i have read. Bad English.

I was of course taking the pee, one day being overweight contributes the next day it is good.

I kind of agree it's more likely to be poor diet but not all obese people have a poor diet,they just consume more calories than they need. For whatever reason.

 

It depends what you class as poor diet - I mean sugars, HFCS, grains, processed foods, seed oils, trans fats, which increase inflammation and small dense ldl. So someone eating a low fat diet high in processed foods, or a low fat diet high in grains (pasta, bread, etc), may think they're eating healthily, and may even lose weight, but may unwittingly be increasing (or not decreasing) factors that lead to heart disease, diabetes etc.Weight loss does help a bit with inflammation, as it is an inflammatory condition. But if all you do is lose subcutaneous fat and keep the visceral fat (the bad stuff that surrounds your organs), then the person will still be at increased risk of heart disease.

[fletch70]

Well i mean a low fat low processed high fibre type diet. Obviously we all need some fat in our diet just as we need protein and carbs.

[Sparks_]

Whilst Coke Zero may have no calories, it's full of sugar.

How can anything have sugar in it and be zero calories? That is a contradiction...also think how easy it would be to lose weight if you could have the sugar without the calories!

[san_d]

How can anything have sugar in it and be zero calories? That is a contradiction...also think how easy it would be to lose weight if you could have the sugar without the calories!

Coke Zero has no sugar, but has contains aspartame and other artificial sweeteners that, on top of being carcinogenic, produce a significant increase in insulin and cortisol.

 

Once again the notion that obesity is simple a matter of calories is plain wrong.

[fletch70]

San d you just do not get the very basic science do you? They may be reasons why bodies use,exerted,absorb more energy than others but at its most basic level if you consume more energy than your body uses or excretes you WILL gain weight. If you consume less you WILL lose weight and i do not mean just water. In my experience the people who make other claims about obesity are generally obese.

I am fat and i dislike it,my body shape is partly genetic but my weight and amount of fat is down to me. Even when i diet there are parts of my body that lose the fat and others that don't. The only way i believe i could get the "perfect" body shape would be surgery which i can not afford or really want.

[fletch70]

Are you saying that aspartame is a carcinogen? From what i have read these studies may well be flawed. I admit it is a debate to be had. You need to remember as well that in many non human studies the dosage is often very many times the conceivable daily consumption.

[estellyn]

San d you just do not get the very basic science do you? They may be reasons why bodies use,exerted,absorb more energy than others but at its most basic level if you consume more energy than your body uses or excretes you WILL gain weight. If you consume less you WILL lose weight and i do not mean just water. In my experience the people who make other claims about obesity are generally obese.

I am fat and i dislike it,my body shape is partly genetic but my weight and amount of fat is down to me. Even when i diet there are parts of my body that lose the fat and others that don't. The only way i believe i could get the "perfect" body shape would be surgery which i can not afford or really want.

 

Yes, if you consume more than you use up you gain weight, But more of us are believing (from the science) that in many cases the current dogma has the cause and effect is the wrong way round. Our bodies control what and how much we want or need to eat through hormones, neurochemicals and biological processes etc. These processes also control how much we burn. Exercise makes us hungry, cutting calories causes our metbolisms to slow. These actions are biological processes designed to control intake and output. For instance, there is a type of brain tumour that children get that when removed and treated causes the brain to have diffulty regulating hormones. Some children get very fat and incredibly sedentary following treatment. Investigations were done, and it was found these children had super high insulin levels, which was causing a lot of what they ate to be stored as fat, their bodies thought they were starving and cut their metabolism making them not want to move around. When these children were treated with a drug that drastically reduced insulin, within weeks the children were spontaneously more active - their insulin levels had dropped and their metabolisms increased allowing energy free for movement. (the reference for this is a book by the doctor treating those children called Fat Chance by Dr Robert Lustig - I'm currently reading it). In initial trials, currently ongoing, this drug has a dramatic effect on about 20% of morbidly obese adults. So it would appear from initial findings, (yes, still to be confirmed in further studies) that maybe 20% of morbidly obese adults might be that way due to a severe overload of insulin - this isn't even a standard test in the UK for obese people. It's certainly not beond the realm of possibility that there are other disorders also contributing to obesity. Science is still growing in this area and looking into hormones, neurochemicals, gut bacteria (gut bacteria from a fat mouse makes a skinny mouse become fat). effects of sleep and stress and much more.

 

Are there people who overeat - eat more calories than they burn and grow fat - yes. The question we should be asking is why. The answer is in no way as simple as people like to make out. If you walked down a street and passed by a busy restaurant and said to someone 'wow, why is that place so full' and someone told you 'well more people went into the restaurant than came out', it tells you nothing, it might be true, but it gives no useful information. This is the same with the calorie hypothesis - yes it is basically true (though all calories are not equal) but saying someone eats more than expended and became fat, doesn't tell us anything useful about why. And it's not a behavioural fault, otherwise, how do you explain obese 6 month olds who only drink formula, crying to be fed all the time - the 6 month old doesn't have a behavioural problem, it cries when it feels hungry - so why is the baby feeling hungry all the time despite eating plenty?

 

If you have a hypothesis that all swans are white (all obesity is a behavioural disorder of gluttony and sloth) then as soon as you find a black swan (obese person where the obesity is caused by a biological cause) then the hypothesis is instantly invalidated.

 

And by the way, I have crohn's and have difficulty keeping from being underweight. I don't come at this from viewpoint of a fat person, but the viewpoint of someone who lost someone close to them following complications of gastric bypass, and who has some obese family members who I would dearly like to help.

[fletch70]

You do make some interesting points. The one that jumps out is about the baby. Do we know why it is crying,it can not tell us,so maybe some parents assume cry=hunger.

I didn't say it was easy.

Another argument you gave is slightly inaccurate in that even if exercise makes you hungry which i didn't find in my days of going to the gym it also raises your metabolism. Equally yes heavy dieting can slow down your metabolism hence the advice not to crash diet but a gentle weight loss program combined with exercise is the recommended course.

I am happy to acknowledge that there are some cases were medical treatments etc cause issues but these are the exceptions rather than the rules.

[estellyn]

You do make some interesting points. The one that jumps out is about the baby. Do we know why it is crying,it can not tell us,so maybe some parents assume cry=hunger.

I didn't say it was easy.

Another argument you gave is slightly inaccurate in that even if exercise makes you hungry which i didn't find in my days of going to the gym it also raises your metabolism. Equally yes heavy dieting can slow down your metabolism hence the advice not to crash diet but a gentle weight loss program combined with exercise is the recommended course.

I am happy to acknowledge that there are some cases were medical treatments etc cause issues but these are the exceptions rather than the rules.

 

How about that for a sweeping statement. How about you quote your references?

[fletch70]

Sweeping statements, i learnt from the best

There are probably several in there so which one in particular. I may not be able to remember the source of my argument but point out which one and i will find a source of :lol

[dpick]

 

And by the way, I have crohn's and have difficulty keeping from being underweight. I don't come at this from viewpoint of a fat person, but the viewpoint of someone who lost someone close to them following complications of gastric bypass, and who has some obese family members who I would dearly like to help.

 

Hi may be a bit off subject but my wife was diagnosed with crohn's approx 3 years ago and is now hopefully on the correct medication for her particular problems due to allergies. It took approx 5 years to get the correct diagnosis and my wife went from 18.5 stone to 11 stone in that time. She was attending one of these weight loss clubs and was being praised for her determination to lose weight before we started realize that she had problems with her digestion etc.

 

Since then she has been diagnosed with problems with low iron and hyperthyroidism and don't know if part of same thing low vitamin d or something similar has to now have more scans.

 

You can bet your sweet life that if my wife had been required to claim esa etc she would have been found by Atos to be fit to work. With this new obesity culture you can bet that she would then have been required to attend a gym and kill herself with exercise.

 

dpick

[estellyn]

Sweeping statements, i learnt from the best

There are probably several in there so which one in particular. I may not be able to remember the source of my argument but point out which one and i will find a source of :lol

 

The last sentence, show me a study where it proves that most obese people had no issues with insulin, leptin, grehlin, seretonin, dopamine.

[estellyn]

Hi may be a bit off subject but my wife was diagnosed with crohn's approx 3 years ago and is now hopefully on the correct medication for her particular problems due to allergies. It took approx 5 years to get the correct diagnosis and my wife went from 18.5 stone to 11 stone in that time. She was attending one of these weight loss clubs and was being praised for her determination to lose weight before we started realize that she had problems with her digestion etc.

 

Since then she has been diagnosed with problems with low iron and hyperthyroidism and don't know if part of same thing low vitamin d or something similar has to now have more scans.

 

You can bet your sweet life that if my wife had been required to claim esa etc she would have been found by Atos to be fit to work. With this new obesity culture you can bet that she would then have been required to attend a gym and kill herself with exercise.

 

dpick

 

Yep, sadly those who are obese are treated as if every ailment they have is due to their obesity. I met an obese guy with crohn's in the gastro clinic waiting room, we got talking, he used to be larger but had slowly been losing weight, but no one would take his digestive issues seriously at first due to his size, he was just told ibs, and sent on his way - he was told his crp was high because he was obese. Then he got rushed in to hospital with an obstruction due to crohn's and ended up with a colostomy. Had he been listened to the drugs may have prevented that from happening. He too, I expect would be mandated to the gym.

 

I've yet to get control of the crohn's - still hoping. Hope your wife gets answers for her other issues.

[fletch70]

I asked for that didn't i?

 

Of course people with problems associated with the hormones you mention are not always on medication, some diabetics for example so proving a negative is much more difficult.

It does seem that almost every argument either of us make can be open to interpretation or countered.

 

My opinion is that most cases of obesity have a lifestyle base but this in itself raises lots of questions. Is it less physical activity than in generations before, is it because we eat processed foods, why do so many kids not walk to school,why do we adults go by bus or car everywhere?

Why are so many people in need of medical treatment for the likes of depression or anxiety or cholesterol.

Why are we so prone to peer pressure that we so"have to keep up with the jones's " why are the vulnerable abandoned. Why has food shopping become so difficult with access to good quality food so expensive and limited.

I suggest that the answer is western capitalism. However how we fix that i do not know.

[estellyn]

I asked for that didn't i?

 

Of course people with problems associated with the hormones you mention are not always on medication, some diabetics for example so proving a negative is much more difficult.

It does seem that almost every argument either of us make can be open to interpretation or countered.

 

My opinion is that most cases of obesity have a lifestyle base but this in itself raises lots of questions. Is it less physical activity than in generations before, is it because we eat processed foods, why do so many kids not walk to school,why do we adults go by bus or car everywhere?

Why are so many people in need of medical treatment for the likes of depression or anxiety or cholesterol.

Why are we so prone to peer pressure that we so"have to keep up with the jones's " why are the vulnerable abandoned. Why has food shopping become so difficult with access to good quality food so expensive and limited.

I suggest that the answer is western capitalism. However how we fix that i do not know.

 

No research references then .

 

My opinion is that it has nothing to do with exercise. But yes, everything to do with western capitalism. What we eat now is processed and made from the cheapest ingredients to produce the most profits. Unfortunately this cheap processed rubbish is bad for us, causes insulin and leptin resistance, addictions to sugar based foods, which then leads to obesity. All the while a lot of these foods are pushed as 'healthy' when in fact they're not. My husband says to add, that the EU tried to bring in strict food labelling laws, but were unable to because the food corporations lobbied MEP's to get them to vote against it, threatening all sorts of things like moving factories out of their areas etc. The power of these large corporations is directly preventing the right science getting out and even creating their own bad science and pushing the publicity on it. Everyone seems to have their 'nose in the trough' nowadays with regards to having a vested interest and so little can be taken on face value.

 

We're not going to agree right now, I think current dogma (helped by the food industry) on the isuue is too prevalent, but If you do only one thing from reading this thread, read a book called Fat Chance, by Robert Lustig - it's well referenced and eye opening.