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1st [nationwide], 2nd Picture/Webb mortgage, negative equity, what next?


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just sent the following to the FOS:

 

thank you very much for your letter dated 13.03.15 which I received yesterday informing me that you will be unable to recommend that my complaint should be upheld. This is further to an e-mail you allegeldy sent on the 13th of March ( I didn't receive an e-mail).

 

What initially took me by surprise is that only on the 12th of March it had been decided you could actually consider my complaint. Only one day later you have already considered it and rejected it. After almost a year it is the final speed of only one day to consider and reject a complaint that is a bit disturbing.

 

After careful consideration I would therefore like to refer my complaint to an Ombudsman for review.

 

This is based on my view that a complaint cannot be fully considered and reviewed in one day and by doing so some errors in your judgement occurred, partially on false / incorrect facts which were then misinterpreted by yourself.

 

It is correct that the loan was taken out in 2005 with Picture loans which I understand went out of business many years ago and the loan has since been sold and bought by a number of companies, all trying to impose their own fees / charges and conditions.

 

You state that it will run out shortly before my 60th birthday and any extension would run into my 'retirement age'. Could you please specify 'retirement age' as new legislation has removed a specific retirement age. I can work as long as I choose. Under current proposals and legislation I can claim state pension from age 67, maybe you were thinking of that ? However, it would be ridiculous to think I would retire when I still have a mortgage to pay. And we are not looking at a ten year extension to cover £3000.- of arrears but only a few years.

So it would appear that you did not consider this aspect carefully and came to a wrong conclusion. It is not a good sign though that you are not aware of the removal of a specific retirement age and that employees can choose to continue to work if they so wish, therefore your argument here is inconsequential and plainly wrong.

 

With regards to consolidation of the arrears you state my loan payments would increase for the remaining term of the loan. Of course they would. To pay the loan and the arrears they would also increase. There is no way to tackle this without an increase of payments. You are stating the obvious. I am currently paying the contractually required amount plus £20.- extra per month towards the arrears as agreed with Idem. To consolidate the arrears would cost around £37.- more a month (again according to IDEM). They are happy to take £20.- more a month towards the arrears but won't accept consolidation for another £17.- more a month to clear them. I don't think that is reasonable behaviour at all, especially when at some point soon they will be pestering to increase the £20.- per month (this is a temporary agreement with them). So strictly speaking they should never ask for more than £36.- per month towards the arrears as any more would mean I could as well have consolidated / capitalized the arrears for £37.- per month. Is that what you are saying ? That is reasonable in your opinion ?

 

You mention in your reasoning a temporary reduced payment agreement with WEBB which was agreed with them when I went through a divorce. You say this agreement could not last forever. I never said it should, nor has it lasted forever as it came to an end last year and I have since been paying the full contractual amount plus £20.- extra per month towards the arrears since IDEM took over. This was not part of the complaint so I am not sure how that comes into it and why you mention it as it has no bearing on IDEM's handling of the arrears, it was merely the reason why there are arrears on the account in the first place.

 

Again this shows a lack of understanding on your side of what the issues are in this case and why it is not advisable to consider a case in just one day.

 

You then proceed on to the matter of IDEM repeatedly ending their letters in the wording: 'you may refer your complaint to our trade body, the Finance and Leasing Association' even in their letter dated 4th of September when they had already been contacted by the FOS. This is not a mere 'mistake'. When I first phoned the FOS the lady on the phone told me the FOS can only consider complaints that are being referred to them by the actual company, i.e. their final response letter has to end in the wording ' you may refer this matter to the FOS'.

 

IDEM as a matter of course does not do this. None of their letters had this addition in it even after they had been contacted by the FOS and I I strongly believe they still send out letters to other clients like this therefore actively delaying or denying their customer the right to take matters to the FOS.

I will enclose a copy of that letter dated the 4th of September to the hardcopy of this letter which you will receive through the post in a few days.

 

And I still believe this has led to a delay in progressing my claim as (although I had a final response letter from IDEM) the FOS refused to deal with it as it didn't have the required ending. I had to wait for 8 weeks until the time frame required had lapsed to bring it to the FOS. (Either a final response letter or 8 weeks from making an initial complaint, so I had to wait for 8 weeks although I had a final response letter much sooner, so how that does not constitute a delay I cannot really understand)

 

So based on the above I think you didn't consider the complaint fully and have shown a lack of understanding in parts, so I think this needs to go to an Ombudsman for review.

 

As for the second person on the loan agreement please note that is my ex husband who no longer lives at this address and who has since moved away and moved in somewhere with a new girlfriend. He doesn't make any payments towards this agreement and doesn't live in the property anymore and hasn't done so for a few years now, so it won't be possible for me to get him to fill out any forms, simply because he has moved away and also makes no payments towards the agreement. IDEM has solely been dealing with me and is being paid by myself, so the complaint is made by myself as I am the person living at the property and making sole payments.

To refuse me the right to take this to an Ombudsman due to this personal circumstance would be grossly unfair.

 

You will see that all letters by IDEM are addressed to just me not a second person. I understand they are not pursuing my ex husband for any payments.

 

 

So please note I would like to take the matter further based on my above explanations.

 

You will receive a hardcopy of this letter through the post.

 

Please confirm receipt due to the imposed deadline 14th of April.

 

 

Yours sincerely

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  • 2 months later...

Ok, now had a reply from the Ombudsman as well who has also not upheld my complaint (surprise surprise)

 

He didn't address any of the points from my letter above, but based his decision on only two points:

a) Although IDEM kept putting a misleading referral in their letters (i.e. I could take the matter to the Finance and Leasing Authority or whatever they are called) it did not lead to a delay in dealing with my complaint as I could have taken it to the FOS anyway when I got their final response.

 

(Which is total nonsense because when I tried this at the time the FOS told me specifically they can and will only deal with it if the final response letter has the correct ending , i.e. it must have a referral to the FOS in the final response letter. So they declined to deal with it. Now the Ombudsman says I could have taken it to the FOS at that time (!!!) which is a complete laugh and totally untrue)

 

He makes a quick note about the fact that IDEM is probably sending letters as standard with the incorrect wording to mislead their customers about their right to take a complaint to the FOS, but as he is only looking at my complaint and not at other customer’s issues, it wouldn’t come into it. So there….

 

b) Idem would consider longterm options of capitalization of the arrears if I send them an income and expenditure sheet.

 

(which again is total nonsense as IDEM have refused to consider any options which are allegedly considered “fair” by the FOS according to their own website (consolidation , extensions etc) and just said that was their final response. They never said anything like that it depends on me sending them an I&E, they just refused all my suggestions and that was it.)

 

So the above are his two reasons for not upholding my complaint.

 

There is a note stating I can phone them about this but they wouldn’t discuss the decision or how they arrived at the decision. (So not much point phoning then !!! :lol:)

 

Also they asked me to sign a form either accepting or rejecting the Ombudsman’s decision within 1 month. As a formality I will reject it, the funny thing is, apparently his decision will only be binding if both parties accept it.

So that of course made me laugh, because even if the Ombudsman had ruled in my favour IDEM would still have had to accept that ruling for it to be binding on them and they would have never accepted anything but a complete rejection of my complaint which is what they got.

So even if my complaint had been upheld I would not have been any better off anyway so what a complete waste of time.

 

You couldn’t make it up really.

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As you say, bizarre.

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Really not sure where you go from here. I agree that you should reject the Ombudsman's decision.

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

 

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

 

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

 

 

BCOBS

 

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

 

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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There is nothing more that can be done through the FOS, although if they make such ridiculous decisions based on incorrect facts then there should really be an appeal system.

I can't even talk to them to point out that what he is saying is complete nonsense.

I really have no idea where he got his 'facts' from, but the icing is of course that both parties have to accept his ruling before it becomes binding.

Isn't the 'loosing' party always going to reject it ? What is the point of the FOS then ?

What a joke.

 

Now waiting for the IDEM warfare....

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Just thinking, aren't mortgage lenders supposed to send an annual statement ?

Idem has taken this loan over more than a year ago and I haven't had a statement from them.

I did get annual statements from WEBB though.

Isn't it a legal obligation to send statements ?

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Idem must have received the Ombudsman's decision letter as I had 7 missed calls from them on my phone yesterday.

Also yesterday I received a customer satisfaction survey from the FOS , they would like to know how my experience with them was and whether there is room for improvement. They regret they won't be able to enter into any discussion about the outcome of my claim though.

 

You couldn't make this up !!!!

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Idem must have received the Ombudsman's decision letter as I had 7 missed calls from them on my phone yesterday.

 

After previously agreeing with them everything should be done in writing and they sent me a letter advising they had deleted all phone numbers for me from their records. They must have found them again !!! LOL

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The FOS would like me to rate them on the following aspects according to their survey:

 

... you listened to me and cared about what I had to say

... you got to grips with things and used common sense

... you gave me clear and honest answers and let me know where I stood

 

It is almost as if they now having a complete laugh ....like walking up to someone, punching them in the face and then asking them to rate this experience.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Just got a text from my EX, Idem phoned him and threatened him with foreclosure.

Which again is funny as they told me in writing they have removed all phone numbers and would do everything in writing.

As he no longer lives in the house he told them to sort it out with me.

 

Not sure what they will do next.

I am currently paying the full amount plus the agreed extra every month towards the arrears.

They have not sent me any letters asking for increased monthly payments towards the arrears, in fact I haven't had a letter from them in ages.

So not sure where I stand now ?

Should I wait for them to contact me or bite the bullet and phone them ?

Also they have not sent me an annual account statement, is that required ?

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  • 3 months later...

Not sure if this is the correct forum, but a member of the site team may move it if there is a more appropriate forum.

 

Just to give a brief overview of the issue at hand:

 

I am living with my partner who is in the process of getting divorced. (We are living in my house and my teenage kids are living with us. I am divorced from their father.)

 

My partner is retired and is drawing his pension. He has got two pensions from employments plus his usual state pension.

He has got property abroad in Cyprus ( jointly owned with his ex which they currently rent out to pay the associated mortgage ) They have no other assets or property in the UK. The divorce is proceeding on the 2 year separation clause by mutual agreement.

His ex wife is younger and in full time employment, their children are both grown up and don't come into this anymore.

 

My partner is the respondent in the divorce and his ex wife the petitioner. He gave her the money to fund the divorce and to pay for her solicitor, so far she had just over £600.- out of an account that is in joint names and is basically not used anymore. He put money into it from his pension and she used a cheque drawn on that account to pay for the divorce costs. This was agreed between them so no problem.

He also cashed in another pension he had under the new pension rules to give her a lumpsum as part of the divorce financial settlement.

He also agreed to monthly payments to her from his pension which I believe he is already making although she is working full time.

I understand these things were agreed between them before the divorce proceedings started to speed things up. They also agreed on the house in Cyprus to go 50/50 on it as neither wants to keep it. So they are hoping of eventually selling it to their current tenant.

 

He has now received the divorce petition from the family court and we had a look at it yesterday. There are some aspects in it that are a bit of a worry though.

The petition requests that a cost order be made against the respondent (my partner) for the legal costs and the divorce costs, but he has already paid these anyway by giving the money to his ex to start proceedings in the first place.

 

Also as part of the financial settlement the petition shows that the petitioner is requesting

 

- a lumpsum

- share of his pension under the relevant laws and regulations

- periodical payments

- sustenance payments

-property order

 

Basically they ticked all the boxes on the relevant form and I am not sure if she is really entitled to all of this.

My partner is a bit naiive with this and thinks his ex wouldn't do anything unfair , but I am not sure whether he fully understands the implications.

As my partner is retired and his ex is working full time is she entitled to maintenance payments plus a share of his pension, as the maintenance payments would be coming out of his pension already as he has no income anymore otherwise.

She already had a lumpsum payment from another pension that he cashed in, would that be taken into consideration, I am not sure whether the petition means she wants more now ? (another lumpsum payment).

Also can a UK court make a property order on a house in Cyprus ? As we are living in my house I am a bit worried that she thinks she can have a share of that too.

 

My partner is currently reluctant to see a solicitor himself due to the costs involved (he already paid the court costs and legal fees of his ex so far).

 

Has anybody got some experience with this ?

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  • 4 weeks later...

Oh yes, there is a bit, as I was posting on my own here with no replies or anything I sort of gave up posting updates.

 

In the end I phoned IDEM and they said there was no payment agreement on record with them hence the phone calls to my EX.

They said they removed all my phone numbers but not his as he didn't request it. They then wanted to do an I&E over the phone with me which I declined.

I asked for a I&E form to be sent to me in the post which they said they would do. Then she asked how long it would take until they would receive that back from me. I said I don't know as I don't know how long it is going to take to receive it in the first place. So she just said they would send one in the post but if they didn't receive it back within 4 weeks from the phone call the recovery measures would continue.

Needless to say I never received one and continued to make the normal payments plus some extra for the arrears.

That was in late summer and as I was about to leave the country for a while and didn't want any nasty surprises upon my return I found an old blank I&E form amongst my loan paperwork. They must have sent that when they first took over the loan. I used that to do an I&E for them and my figures showed that I could afford to pay them £1.- more a month towards the arrears than I currently was (up from £20.- to £21.-). I posted that back to them before I went away and continued to make payments, but increased the arrears payments by £1.- per month.

I heard nothing from them until I received a letter a few weeks ago, threatening me with legal action because 'I did not respond'

It was quite funny as it didn't say what specifically I hadn't responded to or what response they had expected but didn't get. It acknowledged the fact that I was making regular payments but as I hadn't responded they thought they had no other option but to take action against me.

I didn't bother phoning them as that is what it stated I had to do immediately. Instead I sent them a strongly worded letter reminding them that they promised to send an I&E form but never did and that they still received one anyway with increased payments and there was nothing for me to respond to.

I pointed out that any future letters from them that had no bearing on actual events would be considered junk mail and returned to them at their expense.

A few weeks later they send another letter claiming they did post an I&E form at the time, but they also admitted they did receive my form and had now updated their records and they would accept £21.- per month towards the arrears for a period of 6 months starting from November and apologized for sending the previous letter.

 

So that is where I am at the moment.

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Thanks for the update. Very interesting to see how others are getting on when dealing with Idem.

 

I am in a situation with Idem just now - a very odd one - and looking for advice, i'll start my own thread.

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  • 1 month later...

I have read it, but not sure whether this applies to my agreement.

It was never covered by the CCA due to sum borrowed and taken out before 2008.

So I am not really sure whether this applies to my agreement.

 

I have still not received a statement from IDEM, although they took over almost 2 years ago.

WEBB before that always sent me a statement once a year.

 

Very bizarre.

 

This is more precise and may indicate that my agreement is not covered and there is no requirement to send me statements.

 

http://wragge-law.com/insights/2015/february/regulated-unregulated-agreements/

 

In the case described the lender issued paperwork that made an unregulated loan look like a regulated one and they treated it as such so I think the Court ruled it then became regulated.

In my case there is no reason to think this was treated as (or printed on) paperwork making it look like a regulated agreement. The only thing was that Webb sent statements but I think that is not reason enough to be able to request IDEM to do the same.

Interesting case though

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  • 2 months later...

Well, I am still not getting statements, but as indicated above I don't think they have to send them due to the type of agreement I have.

I have heard you can view your account online on their website but I haven't found out how that works just as yet.

 

I haven't heard from them since last year but I assume I will receive a letter soon asking me to contact them, as the payment plan for the arrears has come to an end.

They only agree to it for 6 months and then they start hassling you again. So will probably have to do another I&E for them shortly, but apart from that all has been quiet.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Had a letter from Idem on Saturday.

They state they have reviewed the account and found that they have levied charges in 2014 when they were trying to contact me regarding the arrears. And although they say these charges are in line with their tariff they decided to credit them again as they didn't tell me about them at the time.

 

How very strange.

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  • 3 months later...

I have got a Mortgage with Natwest on a tracker rate, which tracks + 1.45 above Bank of England Rate.

The Bank of England as we know has cut rates on the 4th of August but Nat West keep on charging the same amount, my payments haven't come down.

Funnily enough I already had letters from a number of banks (inlcuding Nat West) telling me the interest rate on my savings accounts have been slashed.

I called Nat West but was fobbed off with I would get a letter through the post, which I so far haven't had.

But they still take the same amount of money for the mortgage of me. The latest payment has just come out of my account.

 

Does anybody know how a tracker mortgage works ? I thought when the BoE rate comes down, the tracker follows suit. It obviously doesn't, so I am a bit confused that I was sold something unsuitable ?

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To add to king most mortgages will only change on a quarterly basis. So the bank take a date and charge you that amount for the next three months i.e rate on 1st August would be the amount you would pay fror sept,oct and nov then your rate for the next 3 months would be the 1st Nov and so on.

I imagine that why you are not seeing any difference yet.

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