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Is my Form 4 complaint justified? **Result + Compo Award**


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To keep you guys up to date, I have received the courts reply with the response/statements of the bailiff and the company. basically admitting a mistake by the company and a load of old tosh from the bailiff. My measured response has been mailed and I now await the Judge's direction. I'll be back.

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Hello everyone, I again thank you for all your comments.

This is a related item but will re-post if necessary.

Under the FOI act I asked my local authority for "A copy of the enforcement services contract in force with companies engaged in recovering unpaid Penalty Charge Notices". Their response was "I can confirm that Broxbourne Borough Council does not have any contracts with companies engaged in the recovery of PCNs"

This seems strange to me. "Contract" has quite a wide scope, and not to have "any contract" would seem irregular. Any comments would be appreciated, along with any info on where I can research this item.

This whole episode has really opened my eyes to the ways in which the bailiff industry is not controlled.

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They don't have any long standing contracts, but do so on an individual case basis when the need arises. With FOI's, they will only answer the question raised. If you had asked, 'Does Broxbourne Borough Council employ the services of private Bailiff companies in pursuit of PCN's and on what basis are these Bailiff companies employed ?

 

Or is it the case that the council have their own staff and use court bailiffs if it gets to the stage of needing them.

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ub67

They do use private bailiffs. I thought my question was broad enough. Their answer says that they have not got "any contracts" with companies. Surely they must have something, be it verbal or written. It seems that many local authorities do have such a document.

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What you possibly need is the Service Level Agreement (SLA).

 

Maybe you should have coached your questions in a different manner eg

1 - do the Council enlist the services of Bailiffs

a - if so for what purposes

b - the names of the companies involved

2 - does the Council have a Service level Agreement with these companies

a - if so what is it

b - if there is no SLA what does the Council do to check up on Bailiffs

etc etc

 

In other words split your original up into small segments so as to give them not a lot of wriggle room. Remember you asked specifically about Contracts, to which this may not apply.

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Thank you ploddertom. I will submit a more detailed request as suggested. I know I am being picky, but surely an agreement of any kind is a contract (little c).They said.

"I can confirm that Broxbourne Borough Council does not have any contracts with companies engaged in the recovery of PCNs"

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Thank you ploddertom. I will submit a more detailed request as suggested. I know I am being picky, but surely an agreement of any kind is a contract (little c).They said.

"I can confirm that Broxbourne Borough Council does not have any contracts with companies engaged in the recovery of PCNs"

 

Technically I suppose hey are correct as to recover an unpaid PCN they have to obtain a Court Order from the TEC which is then handed to the Bailiff.

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  • 2 months later...

I am back with news that the hearing date for my Form4 complaint has been set for Sept. A long trip up north. After all this time I still feel that my complaint is justified and still feel that the bailiff breached the POFA by clamping.

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I was going by the time mine was sent which was about 2 months. Plodders, Just wondering if they have a lot of form 4 there are having to process as all rossers bailiffs are certificated at that court.

 

lgwarren- the bailiff may also have a long trip as i have said above, all bailiffs, no matter where they reside, are certificated at the same court. I think this is si JGJ can keep an eye on her minions.

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Seanamarts. If I remember rightly, your Form 4 complaint was a long time ago and since then, there have been dreadful cutbacks to the court service and a delay until September is about right.

With possible requests to adjourn from the bailiffs this will probably be heard next year

We could do with some help from you.

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The bailiff: A 12th Century solution re-branded as Enforcement Agents for the 21st Century to seize and sell debtors goods as before Oh so Dickensian!

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lgwarren

 

 

You have mentioned that the Form 4 complaint has been listed "up North" in September.

 

As you were the one making the complaint you can request that it is transferred to a court that is local to you . Page 8 of the Ministry of Justice Form EX345 explains more.

 

http://hmctscourtfinder.justice.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/ex345-eng.pdf

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I've only just visited this thread for the first time.

 

I hope that your application succeeds - but my feeling is that it is unlikely to do so and I would not have advised you to begin it.

The reason is that a form 4 essentially deprives a person of their livelihood in that "profession" for the rest of their life. This is a hugely serious step and I think that the courts are very aware of the significance of their decisions and the responsibility which weighs with them.

 

I am sure that the episode which you are complaining about was a deliberate piece of misconduct but I am not at all sure that it is bad enough that a court will wish to accede to a form 4 application.

 

What worries me is that if your application is unsuccessful, that there could be an order for costs against you which would be very damaging as well as adding to your justifiable sense of hurt and anger.

 

I think that there is a better way to approach the question of form 4 applications.

 

To justify any form 4 application, there must have been some wrongdoing by the bailiff - amounting at least to a trespass.

 

It is much easier - and safer to bring a small claim for trespass in the county court.

If this succeeds, then one can go on to make a further decision as to whether or not to follow up with a form 4.

 

A small trespass action will have the merit of teasing out the evidence so that you have a much better idea of what the other side is going to say. You get a better idea of the strength of your case for a form 4 application - and also in a small trespass claim, you are unlikely to be faced with costs if you lose.

 

If you do lose, then you can be sure that you have no chance of a form 4. If you win, then you will have more confidence to consider your position.

 

In general, I would not advise any form 4 application without a "pathfinder" small claim in the county court.

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I quite agree with Bank Fodder.

 

I have now read through all pages to understand your complaint more clearly.

 

It is always the case that BEFORE considering a Form 4 Complaint that a formal Letter of Complaint is sent to the council and marked Stage One Complaint. A copy should be sent to the bailiff company.

 

If the complaint is rejected, a further Stage 2 Complaint should be sent to the council. It must be remembered that the LOCAL AUTHORITY are wholly responsible for the levy and fees charged by their agent. A Stage 2 complaint should not be addressed by the same person who responded to the Stage 1 Complaint. It should be addressed by somebody in a more senior position.

 

So many people are encouraged to make a Form 4 Complaint without understanding what Form 4 Complaints are.

 

Firstly, the courts list Form 4 as litigation. The purpose of a Form 4 Complaint is to persuade the District Judge that the bailiff is "not a fit and proper person to hold a certificate". These are the precise words from the Statutory Regulations.

 

If the Judge were to make such a finding, he will know that the bailiff's employment will cease that very day and with it, the bailiffs right to earn a living as a bailiff ever again. Taking away the bailiff's livelihood is a very serious matter for the Judge to consider and is one that he he or she will NOt take lightly.

 

As an example: In a Form 4 Hearing at Leicester County Court on 29th January 2010 District Judge Hampton stated the following:

 

 

"I have to consider whether to find that Mr xxx is not a fit and proper person (to hold a certificate).....this is......DRACONIAN"

 

 

She stated that the complaint was not sufficiently serious enough to revoke the bailiffs certificate.

 

On the matter of costs, the EX345 issued by the Ministry of Justice confirms that costs MAY be imposed on the complainant and in the case detailed above, District Judge Hampton ordered the complainant to pay costs of £750 to THE BAILIFF

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As an example: In a Form 4 Hearing at Leicester County Court on 29th January 2010 District Judge Hampton stated the following:

 

 

"I have to consider whether to find that Mr xxx is not a fit and proper person (to hold a certificate).....this is......DRACONIAN"

 

 

This Judge was clearly off her head then. Though it's true they never tend to be in the real world do they.

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Outlawla. District Judge Hampton is a very senior Judge with extensive knowledge of bailiff law and she has presided over many cases. She also works at Northampton County Court. In 2010, she would be hearing complaints in her courts against both Newlyn plc and Equita Ltd.

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If one of the criteria for being granted a bailiff certificate is "you are a fit and proper person", then, if the bailiff falling under scrutiny is not, a mistake must have been made by the County Court issuing the certificate.

 

Wouldn't it be reasonable that a district Judge having any amount of tolerance in determining a form 4 complaint should be put under scrutiny themselves.

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  • 5 months later...

Hello to you all,I am sitting on the train back to Euston having a beer.A little celebration.I won my case, the bailiffs certificate was taken from him, and I was awarded compensation.YAHOO!!I will get back to my beer, and to all you guys later. I have not finished with Jacobs yet.

Just to add, a form 4 can be entered for both reasons. i.e. to complain about the conduct of the bailiff "OR" to question his fitness to hold a certificate. The legislation says "OR".

Edited by lgwarren
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