This article isn't concerned whether you owe the debt or not, just a bit of clairfication on what bailiffs can and cannot do.

[seylectric]

This article isn't concerned whether you owe the debt or not, just a bit of clairfication on what bailiffs can and cannot do.

 

We all know that if you don't pay up they threaten to come along and take your goods. This applies to private bailiffs, e.g. those hired to collect a debt for non-payment of council tax or parking fines (NOTE: NOT speeding fines or traffic offences issued by the police, for non-payment of these you CAN be arrested).

 

It also applies to court bailiffs, hired by the creditor after, for example, you have a CCJ against you and you don't pay it.

 

The system is a little strange - councils will typically hire private bailiffs for collecting unpaid council tax (for example) whilst creditors actualy use the county court bailiffs for collecting unpiad monies from a CCJ! They have to pay an addititonal fee to the courts for this, so many don't bother especially for smaller debts.

 

Councils on the other hand are publicly funded (that's by you and me) so will keep spending for years to pursue the debt.

 

BAILIFFS

 

Bailiffs of any kind can NOT enter through a locked door and can NOT break in.

 

They CAN enter an UNLOCKED garage and take your car away. They CAN take it from the street. Without going into any more detail, the rules are simple:

 

They CANNOT enter your home if you don't let them in - NEVER sign anything, even outside the door, they wil tell you it's a repayment agreement and you MUST sign or your goods wil be removed.

 

RUBBISH! There is NO law which says you have to agree to or sign anything, and if you don't let them in they can't break in. if you DO sign you wil probably have been duped into signing a "walking possession agreement", this then means you have signed your goods over to them (such as your TV and video) and most importantly if you have signed they CAN then legally break in.

 

DON'T SIGN ANYTHING. EVER!

 

What about your car? Simple. Tell them you are self-employed. They can NOT take your car if it is for business use. Similarly, they can not take it if you are buying it on H.P. (Hire purchase) because you don't own it, so it's not yours to take. HOWEVER this does not apply if you got a loan (not H.P.) to buy the car.

 

Go for the self-employed angle. If you get a letter saying "Pay up or we will come round and take your goods and/or car", just write back telling them that you are self-employed and you need your car for business use. Send it recorded delivery. Trust me, they wouldn't even risk taking your car. They may ask for proof you are self-employed. Ignore them. You have no obligation to prove anything.

 

But to cover yourself, become self-employed for free. Open a sellers account on ebay - you don't have to buy or sell anything, but then you need your car to collect stock and take your parcels to the post office when you do.

 

Sorted!

[ozzywizard]

But to cover yourself, become self-employed for free. Open a sellers account on ebay - you don't have to buy or sell anything, but then you need your car to collect stock and take your parcels to the post office when you do.

 

Now that is a new one !!!! . . very good post and informative. ty/

[lookinforinfo]

Thanks for that post Seylectric. Perhaps you be good enough to clear up one point,

that I remember reading-on a bailiffs site,I think.

 

They said that they could take a car on HP since included in the car would be an

element of the debtors money, which they felt enabled them to take the car in

iorder to extract thast element from the car.[i accept that if you had already informed them the you were self employed etc. etc. ,

but as a point of Principle could their argument be correct?].

[bakedalasker]

No they can not take the car on HP.

 

While the car is on HP it belongs to the finance company. The only time it becomes the owner of the "driver" is when the HP agreement is full and final.

 

Remember while on HP the driver can terminate at any time. If the driver wants to keep the car then he/she would have to settle in full and final to the finance house. The driver can terminate with only one payment left and the car will still belong to the finance house unless full and final settlement is reach.

 

Ther is no part ownership between driver and finance house. It belongs to the finance house until full and final then it belongs to the driver.

[seylectric]

I think they're bluffing. They tried it on with me, but I don't think they can take the car and sell it on any more than you or I can resell a car that is subject to an H.P. agreement without the permission of the owners, the owners being the H.P company of course.

 

From experience, Phoenix Commercial Collections bailiff came round a few months ago to collect several hundred quid for an unpaid parking ticket and having been unable to gain entry to the house as usual. The guy started to hover around my car and tried the door handle, which set off the alarm. I went outside to ask him "what the hell he thought he was doing" at which point he presented me with the bill and said "Pay up or I take the car".

 

The conversation went something like this:

 

"Sorry", I told him, "But it's not my car. It's on H.P. You can't take it."

 

"Yes I can", he says.

 

"No you can't", I said. "It's not my car".

 

"I'll have to do a HPI check which will cost you another £36" he said.

 

"Sorry, but I've given you the facts, if you choose not to believe me and you need to verify that then it's at your own expense, not mine."

 

At that point he made a phone call, got a call back a few minutes later and said "OK I've confirmed it is on H.P., that's another £36 added to your account but it doesn't stop me taking it. Please give me the keys."

 

"I'd better phone the H.P. company first and see if they agree to me giving you their car keys" I told him, "as I wouldn't want to be a party in an illegal act. Phone them yourself if you like!". I offered him the number from my mobile phone contacts list but he ignored it, made another phone call which lasted about 10 minutes then got in his car and drove off!

 

Not heard a word since and that was over four months ago. Actualy I would have been laughing my socks off if they had taken it in my absence as I AM genuinely self-employed and had already previously informed them in writing (sent by recorded delivery) several months before of the fact, so if they had taken it they would have knowingly done so illegally.

[seylectric]

Just had a callback from Trading Standards who have done a little bit of research for me. The official answer is NO they can not take third-party goods, a car bought on H.P. is of course third party goods, the third party being the H.P. company.

 

Therefore if the bailiffs threaten otherwise they are then illegally intimidating you into coughing up or handing over the keys in which case you should be chasing them for compensation for illegal harrassment as I will be doing.

[montydon]

Hi Seylectric, this is a fantastic post, thanks for sharing this information.

May I ask (what could be a silly question)-if you're a limited company do the same rules apply?

 

Many thanks

[seylectric]

That I wouldn't know to be honest as I'm not Ltd. but I presume that most limited companies would be better off leasing than buying anyway, in which case they're really up the creek without a paddle!

 

One strange quirk of the law to bear in mind, the council can tow away an illegally parked car as well as issue a ticket but bailiffs can't take it (in these circumstances) after the event!

[rambo]

What bailiffs can and can't do is, unfortunatley irrevelant, they do what they like. They will take cars/vans even if they are on HP or used for bussiness.

This is why sites like this exist-because bailiffs break the law on a regular basis.

[seylectric]

It's anything but irrelevant! The point is that many people HAVE had their cars taken or handed over the keys because they didn't know any better and believed what the bailiff told them. It actually happened to a friend of mine, also self employed, just a couple of weeks ago who had his car towed off his driveway in his absence by the bailiffs. It cost him over £460 to recover it - all because he didn't advise the bailiffs as I had told him to several times that he was self-employed and needed it for his work.

 

The point of THIS thread is to let people know what they can and cannot do. Take it from me, the chances of the bailiff taking your car if he knows for a fact that it is for business use or on H.P. are very slim indeed because they KNOW that you can then sue them.

 

The important thing is to let them know that YOU know, and if you get that far the chances of them risking it are almost non-existent. If they do, you also now know that you are in a position to sue for expenses, inconvenience caused and so on. This even stretches to hire car charges until you get your car back, or even the cost of replacing your car if they have sold it at auction.

 

If it DOES happen to you, tell them you want the car delivering back to you - don't go and collect it - and you will be charging them £100 a day until you get it.

[bakedalasker]

If I was in a position where a debt collector was chasing me and took my car knowing it was on HP I would sit back and watch. It would not be long before I was threatening them with legal action. Reckon I would end up getting my debt cleared with interest. Fortunately I'm not being chased and I have no car on HP. Learnt my lesson on the HP side so its the bangers yard for me.

 

Being a limited company is not so clear cut as having a car on HP. If the company owns the car and you are a director then they can come and take it away. The lease suggestion referred to above is the way around this.

[Guest Zooman]

If I was in a position where a debt collector was chasing me and took my car knowing it was on HP I would sit back and watch. It would not be long before I was threatening them with legal action. Reckon I would end up getting my debt cleared with interest. Fortunately I'm not being chased and I have no car on HP. Learnt my lesson on the HP side so its the bangers yard for me.

 

Being a limited company is not so clear cut as having a car on HP. If the company owns the car and you are a director then they can come and take it away. The lease suggestion referred to above is the way around this.

If you had not told them it was on HP etc no judge in the land would give you damages.

[bakedalasker]

Yes I agree.

 

Where I said "knowing it was on HP" I was referring to the collector itself. It is paramount that they know this.

[lookinforinfo]

I agree Seyectric, that your post is not irrelevant. At the moment I am suing a

bailiff for theft. Something I would probably not have done had I not been so

well informed by posts such as yours on this site.

[rambo]

Don't get me wrong guys, i'm not saying that the information is irrelevent, its just that bailiffs take no notice of law, there is a guy who had his car taken by the bailiffs even though its on HP, and they won't give it back and the police won't get involved.

The point I am trying to make is that bailiffs break the law all the time and get away with it.

[seylectric]

My aim is to go for the jugular with the harrassment angle - the letter, for example, that said they would be coming around in such a date with "a locksmith and the police" two or three years ago, which had me frantically trying to get hold of the always-engaged Citizens Advice line and ended up with me taking the day off work to prevent them breaking my door down.

 

This letter was issued despite the fact that they could do no such thing as I hadn't signed a walking possession agreement and they hadn't previously set foot in the house, but I didn't know that at the time of course!

 

They have since had a bill for my lost earnings for the unneccesary day I had off work (they didn't even turn up) and later a second letter asking them what sort of compensation they might be willing to offer out pending legal action for the harrassment they have put me through, both of which they have completely ignored. This was quite some time ago, we tend not to bother each other any more but no doubt they will be back and when they are I intend to go for it next time.

[buzz]

If you had not told them it was on HP etc no judge in the land would give you damages.

 

 

Any genuine bailiff would check first to see if it was on hp.

 

They have to check ownership so they know they are only taking away that particular debtors goods, so this info would come up then.

 

Surely the judge would award damages as it would prove the bailiff had not done his job properly.

 

Buzz

[seylectric]

Agreed, just taking something on the assumption it's yours is ridiculous, the bailiffs know this and that's why they try to dupe you into handing over the keys. You would have a stonewall case against the bailiffs, for damages, harrassment, theft (see below), expenses including daily car hire and so on.

 

I would be tempted to phone the police and insist they chage the bailiff with theft if they took my car when they had no legal right to do so, and in fact another angle that covers this is the Human Rights Act, which says something like you are entitled to enjoy your possessions peacefully without threat of removal or something like that, which presumably is designed to prevent bailiffs and DCA's doing this sort of thing.

[Guest Zooman]

I can quote endless case law that says the debtor has to prove to the bailiff who owns what. Any instructions about a HP check come from the person contracting the bailiff, so I'm afraid the judges hand would be tied in a lower court.

[seylectric]

I'm not doubting what you say but I would be interested to see some actual law relating to this. When I spoke to Trading Standards the other day they did a little bit of research and came back to say that the bailiffs cannot take anything unless they are sure beyond reasonable doubt that the goods actually belong to the owner.

 

If a bailiff walks into your house and takes your TV I would say he is reasonably safe in assuming that the TV is yours, but given that a lot of vehicles are subject to H.P. or lease agreements I find it difficult to accept that a bailiff would just take any vehicle and ask questions later IF - and this is the important bit - you have previously told them that it is subject to a H.P. agreement.

 

Of course, going back to where I started with this thread, the ultimate get-out clause is to tell them it's for business use!

[blfuk1]

I can quote endless case law that says the debtor has to prove to the bailiff who owns what. Any instructions about a HP check come from the person contracting the bailiff, so I'm afraid the judges hand would be tied in a lower court.

 

Bailiffs are constantly being told (at the point of seizing goods where payment is not available), "that doesn't belong to me". Zooman is correct in that a bailiff only needs to have reasonable cause to believe goods belong to a debtor to be able to seize them.

 

The onus of proof is always on the debtor to show goods are exempt (e.g. that goods do not belong to the debtor) as stated in Gonsky v Durrell [1918]. In Observer Ltd v Gordon [1983] it was made clear that it was not reasonable for bailiffs to make enquiries [as to ownership]. Under common law distraint, “by exercise of reason and judgment on the facts capable of being found on enquiry, a reasonable person would have to conclude that the goods in possession of the debtor were fully owned by that person (Re Fox [1948]). It follows, therefore, that if the bailiff has a reasonable belief that the debtor owns the goods, those goods may be seized (although they may later be subject to a third party claim).

 

The best way to avoid having to deal with such disputes is to pay the sum you owe before it is passed to a bailiff!

[blfuk1]

Of course, going back to where I started with this thread, the ultimate get-out clause is to tell them it's for business use!

 

Not true! In order to qualify for exemption from seizure your 'business use' would have to be for use 'personally' (and exclusively) by you for your business. This means that if the vehicle is occasionally used by anyone else (spouse for example), then it is not for your 'personal' use and not exempt from seizure.

 

See Court of Appeal Ruling on Sheriff of Bedford & Toseland Building Supplies Ltd v. Bishop [1993] CA (unreported) where the Court held that as a JCB digger, owned and operated by the Appellant was, by the Appellant’s own admission, occasionally operated by his employees, he could not demonstrate that it was necessary to him ‘for use personally by him in his business’ and dismissed the appeal.

 

The best way to beat the bailiff is to pay the debt before it is issued to the bailiff! Warrants are only issued when debts are not paid.....

[buzz]

After that programme the other week about those bailiffs, how do we know that the warrant is genuine.

 

One of them even managed to hoodwink two policemen.

 

Buzz

[blfuk1]

After that programme the other week about those bailiffs, how do we know that the warrant is genuine. One of them even managed to hoodwink two policemen.Buzz

 

Unfortunately you dont. Bailiffs do not even have to have a warrant in their possession at the time of execution but must advise you where it may be inspected and permit you to see it at the earliest opportunity - although, of course, that may be after your goods have gone!

 

There is no easy answer here as anyone can masquerade as any official. Two basic questions you may wish to ask yourself:

 

1. Do I recognise this debt (e.g. is it my car reg, did I commit this offence; am I in arrears with my council tax, etc)? If so then it is likely this is genuine.

 

2. Has the creditor (council, court etc) written to me previously about this debt? If yes then it is likely that the bailiff is there genuinely.

 

You may like to call the creditor to verify that the company the bailiff works for is charged with executing a warrant against you. If the creditor confirms this, then it is most likely genuine. If not, I would advise caution!!

[seylectric]

When I'm talking about "business use" I'm talking about the individual here, i.e. self-employed business use. It's important not to take the information in this thread out of context here by over-elaborating, and I feel we're going off at a tangent here.

 

The poor sods who the councils and their cronies are trying to rip off due to an unpaid and possibly illegally issued parking ticket which should not have been issued in the first place and may not be a legal debt anyway need to know what they can and can't do.

 

IF you tell the bailiffs that you are self-employed and that your vehicle is for business use YOU HAVE INTRODUCED REASONABLE DOUBT AND THEY CAN'T (LEGALLY) TAKE IT!