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    • Every few weeks i get a letter from Arrow regarding an old debt. No details just an account number and asking me to contact them to arrange a suitable payment. I know that any payment i last made on a debt was over 8 years ago apart from an agreed ccj which was successfully agreed with help from CAG. The latest letter is they have passed to a specialist doorstep collector who will be in touch. Is it time to ask them for evidence and proof of a debt or should I continue to ignore the letters? They look like standard letters with account numbers added, pretty generic.
    • @Manxman in exilethank you for your input its very appreciated yes I've limited time will see what I'm dealing with when I get back 
    • If you are flying away tomorrow (or rather this) morning I'd just forget about complaining to the police now.  As BF said earlier it's probably just a waste of your time anyway so I wouldn't worry about it.  Forget it for now.  Have a safe flight and concentrate on your other thread against Aviva.
    • I'm afraid you won't get a complaint drafted before tomorrow morning - and I think most others here think it would be a waste of time anyway and that the police decision won't change.  I would ask for a review and make a complaint on principle, but I suspect you are better off concentrating your effort on your other thread and direct complaint against Aviva.   Unless you are out of the country for an extended period I'd wait until your return before considering futrther whwther to complain about the police.   [ By the way, just so that you don't mislead yourself as it's a mistake many people make, ALL agreements are "verbal" in that they are composed of words.  Some agreements are in writing and others are oral, spoken or vocal.  The law recognises oral or spoken agreements just as much as ones that are written down.  The only practical difference is that oral agreements can be difficult to prove in a dispute]
    • Just to add there is a scheme called the Victim's Right to Review.  It basically applies to decisions made by the CPS not to go ahead with a prosecution.  It doesn't apply to decisions made by local police forces, but it does say:   19.  Decisions that are not eligible for VRR include: ... iii where the police or other investigator exercises their independent discretion not to investigate or not to investigate a case further (whether in consultation with the CPS or not) and the CPS have not been requested / have been unable to make a final decision to charge. Requests for review of such decisions should instead be addressed to the relevant police force/other investigator; [My bold] Victims' Right to Review Scheme | The Crown Prosecution Service WWW.CPS.GOV.UK   I'm not familiar with the scheme so can't advise - but other posters here may know about it or have experience of it.  You need to read the above link but note that it talks about things that seem to fit your situation.   eg a victim is defined as ‘a person who has made an allegation that they have suffered harm, including physical, mental or emotional harm or economic loss which was directly caused by criminal conduct’.   If you have not already requested that the police review their decision not to pass the case onto the CPS, then I would do so.  If you are not happy with the outcome of that, complain.   I can't advise you definitely to go ahead and ask for a review or complain, but if I were in your situation that is what I would do.  But I tend to agree with BankFodder that you'll get nowhere and, if you are sick and tired of all this and just want it to go away, then just drop the police.  However, if you don't try...   [Apologies for the italic typeface/font - it's the above link causing it.  The italics should have stopped at the end of the third para above ending ' ... criminal conduct'.  I can't change it.  Very annoying]
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Verdant and CitiCards


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Verdant

Instead of using RM website ring the number on the Recorded delivery reciept, I ,ve had a few lettrs not come up on the site but when you phone they were delivered:confused:

 

AL

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I've been preparing the particulars on MCOL in case Citi don't come through with a full refund of my charges this week. I'm using the information from the library about completing the particulars.

 

I'm wondering about my costs. Can I put in an amount for my costs, mainly postage, paper, envelopes and time. If I can do I put the costs in with the amount of my claim in section 5, or in section 7 (costs allowed by the court), or do I add another section?

 

As I'm self employed and charge a fixed hourly rate for my services, can I charge the time it's taken me to pursue this claim as a cost?

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From what I can gather people are only claiming for the amount they are due in penalty charges + interest.

 

If people are doing otherwise here would be nice to know.

Advice offered by ENRON is without prejudice and is for your judgement as to whether to take it. You should seek the assistance or hire of a solicitor or other paid professional if in doubt.

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Yes i have seen a thread discussing just that, charging for time, the actual process may and sounds a bit complicated from what i can remember.

I'll try and retrace my steps and see if i can find it again.

 

AL

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CAPITAL ONE * SETTLED*31st Oct 06

HBOS *SETTLED* 8th Oct 06

WOOLWICH *SETTLED*12thJan2007

Monument (Barclays) *SETTLED*10thMar2007

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Think that you as the claimant are protected from costs from the other side when you enter into a small claims case, as such it would be logical that the other side would be protected from any claims for costs that you would have against the defendent.

 

Though obviously this would need clarifying.

Advice offered by ENRON is without prejudice and is for your judgement as to whether to take it. You should seek the assistance or hire of a solicitor or other paid professional if in doubt.

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You cannot claim costs in the SCC - v other than your fixed costs - ie the cost of bringing the claim -the threads you have ben reading re hourly costs are most likely cases that have been fast tracked.

 

Phew thanks Gizmo i could have been here for hours, oh i have been:o

 

AL:)

-------------------------

CAPITAL ONE * SETTLED*31st Oct 06

HBOS *SETTLED* 8th Oct 06

WOOLWICH *SETTLED*12thJan2007

Monument (Barclays) *SETTLED*10thMar2007

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You cannot claim costs in the SCC - v other than your fixed costs - ie the cost of bringing the claim -the threads you have ben reading re hourly costs are most likely cases that have been fast tracked.

 

What is counted as a cost of bringing the claim? The 14 days I gave them in my LBA is up today and I want to submit my MCOL this evening. Any advice gratefully received.

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When you file your MCOL online, you`ll enter the total of charges you are claiming, work out the interest using the spreadsheet available on here.

 

The cost of filing the MCOL will automatically be applied.

Advice offered by ENRON is without prejudice and is for your judgement as to whether to take it. You should seek the assistance or hire of a solicitor or other paid professional if in doubt.

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Case will eventually be transferred to the county court closest to you, at which point no doubt Citi will try and get it transferred to Salford - if you send in a written letter at this point objecting it won't happen.

 

Need anymore info just ask.

Advice offered by ENRON is without prejudice and is for your judgement as to whether to take it. You should seek the assistance or hire of a solicitor or other paid professional if in doubt.

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The claim was served on Tuesday 23rd January. Citi filed an acknowledgement stating they intend to defend all of the claim.

 

I'm not sure how they can justify a defence of the full amount when they have previously stated in court that their estimate of the true cost is £12.88 (I think that's right) and all of the charges they have applied to my account were for more than that amount.

 

I could understand it if they wanted to defend part of it. I wonder if the recent order by a judge about Lloyds TSB could be brought to bear here.

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The ywil ldefend whole amount cos somewhere along the line they will pay you the difference between £25 and £12 - be careful you don't cash any cheques sent in full and final settlement. Their defence will reveal all.

Consumer Health Forums - where you can discuss any health or relationship matters.

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Unfortunately Citi are contesting and defending the majority of cases, so unfortunately don't think the recent Lloyds order will be applicable.

 

However it wouldn't hurt to contact the court when you fill in your AQ and include the following draft order, along with your schedule of charges:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/53570-new-strategy-allocation-questionaires.html

 

As Gizmo stated, they recently sent a cheque and included the words `final settlement` in the letter - study any letter carefully from Citi that includes payment because if it includes these words and you cash they cheque your case is over in the eyes of the court.

Advice offered by ENRON is without prejudice and is for your judgement as to whether to take it. You should seek the assistance or hire of a solicitor or other paid professional if in doubt.

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Hi there, im fairly new to all this but i am currently taking HSBC to court for around £1500 but i am very wary of doing the same with Citi cards as i have read that they are actually contesting the claims?! i have sent the usual 2 letters before court action asking/demanding they pay me the £763 that they have charged me (including interest). I have recieved a letter from a Mark Clibbens saying that "it may take between three and six weeks as they (statements) are retrieved from our archives" blah,blah and that he will confirm in writing the outcome, so what i want to know is do i to to moneyclaim online? Please,please can you/anyone help or advise me? Many thanks-Craig

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Hi there, im fairly new to all this but i am currently taking HSBC to court for around £1500 but i am very wary of doing the same with Citi cards as i have read that they are actually contesting the claims?! i have sent the usual 2 letters before court action asking/demanding they pay me the £763 that they have charged me (including interest). I have recieved a letter from a Mark Clibbens saying that "it may take between three and six weeks as they (statements) are retrieved from our archives" blah,blah and that he will confirm in writing the outcome, so what i want to know is do i to to moneyclaim online? Please,please can you/anyone help or advise me? Many thanks-Craig

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  • 4 weeks later...

I haven't been updating this thread recently as we moved house and I've had no Internet access at home, but I'm up and running again now.

 

Citi finally filed a defence on Thursday 22nd Feb, just two working days before the 28 day limit. I don't have a copy of their defence as yet but I assume it will be fairly standard stuff. On MCOL it says that the defendant disputes the whole amount so I was surprised to receive a letter this morning from Brian Smith offering me £187.00 as an ex gratia payment of the difference between each of the charges and £12.

 

The letter contains a paragraph: In over a dozen recent court cases involving Citi, we have successfully argued the fairness of the above policy and the fairness of the £12 charges. The cases have all resulted in the claims being dismissed and the courts have implicitly held that the policy is fair and the charges reasonable, being in line with both OFT guidance and common law principles of damage for breach of contract.

As I mentioned earlier, I've not been able to keep up with the comings and goings of the Citi soap opera recently. Is it true that Citi have succesfully defended these claims for the final £12 of each charge, or is it another attempt to mislead?

 

Am I right in assuming I can cash the cheque with prejudicing my case?

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DO NOT CASH THE CHEQUE WHATEVER YOU DO!!

 

If you do,it's all over.Mine was the first ever case they showed up for,and of course we got a gullible judge who accepted EVERYTHING they said as fact,and did not even let us see the paperwork they were depending on.

 

APPEALED and ongoing....

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The letter contains a paragraph: In over a dozen recent court cases involving Citi, we have successfully argued the fairness of the above policy and the fairness of the £12 charges. The cases have all resulted in the claims being dismissed and the courts have implicitly held that the policy is fair and the charges reasonable, being in line with both OFT guidance and common law principles of damage for breach of contract.

 

Thye didn't mention the ones thattehy haven't been successful on - the judge in my case last week didn't fall for their arguments and ordered ful ldisclosure.

 

What does it say about the cheque?

Consumer Health Forums - where you can discuss any health or relationship matters.

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Thye didn't mention the ones thattehy haven't been successful on - the judge in my case last week didn't fall for their arguments and ordered ful ldisclosure.

 

They couldn't attempt to mislead if they told us the facts about all the cases.

 

What does it say about the cheque?

 

I'll post the full letter:

 

Dear Verdant,

 

Account number: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

I act on behalf of CitiFinancial Europe plc and I am writing to you in response to your complaint regarding the default charges applied to your account.

 

I assume that your complaint was made as a result of the recent statement by the Office of Fair Trading (OFT) on default fees charged by the UK credit card industry.

 

My client has adopted the same practices as the entire UK credit card industry and, with that industry, disagrees with the OFT's interpretation of the law relating to default charges. Please note that the OFT recognises that its interpretation does not have the force of law, having never been decided by a court, and is therefore merely persuasive.

 

Moreover, the OFT did acknowledge that default fees are not themselves unlawful, but simply confined itself to stating that it believed that the level of default charges imposed by the UK credit card industry to be unfair. Therefore, if you breach your contract, we are and always were, entitled to levy a default fee, just not one in excess of £12.00.

 

The OFT did not say in its statement that all such charges are unfair; it merely set a recommended threshold of £12.00 to reflet the balance of information given to it by many of the banks that these charges are based on a number of factors and not just, as is commonly supposed, the price of a stamp or the envelope,etc.

 

In line with the OFT statement, therefore, I have advised my client that, in your case, as a previous cardholder who has been charged six late fees of £25.00, one over limit fee of £25.00, six late fees of £20.00 and six over limit fees of £20.00 which is a total of £415.00, it would be appropriate to write off the difference between our charges and the OFT's recommended level of £12.00. Having reviewed your account, I have therefore recommended that the sum of £187.00 be written off, reflecting the difference between £415.00 and £288.00 had the charges been £12.00. This amount has been written off on an ex gratia basis and enclosed as a cheque

 

In the event that you are not satisfied with this and proceed to issue a claim for the full amount, CitiFinancial will defend this on the basis of the OFT's own statement and analysis of the lawful level of default charges.

 

In over a dozen recent court cases involving Citi, we have successfully argued the fairness of the above policy and the fairness of the £12 charges. The cases have all resulted in the claims being dismissed and the courts have implicitly held that the policy is fair and the charges reasonable, being in line with both OFT guidance and common law principles of damage for breach of contract.

 

Any defence will also exercise the defendant's right to seek to have the claim transferredto its home court, i.e. Salford County Court. The legal presumption is that justice should be local to the defendant as the defendant is deemed innocent until proven guilty and ought not to be disadvantaged in defending itself.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Brian Smith

Solicitor

 

 

My reading of the section about the cheque is that it's not a full and final offer and it has no strings attached. I could, however, be quite wrong and just want to make sure before I pay it into my bank account.

 

Innocent until proven guilty; I thought that was criminal law. Perhaps Citi see themselves as criminals.

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  • 1 month later...

After Citi filed their defence I asked for a stay of a month to try and negotiate a settlement. I sent a letter to Citi explaining that in order to reach a negotiated agreement I would need them to explain the basis and structure of their costs in relation to their default charges. They haven't replied. I already had a signed letter from their data protection manager saying that the charges were applied automatically with no manual intervention at all, so I 'm sure their costs in regard to each breach aren't very high at all.

 

In the meantime, District Judge Spencer has issued an order:

 

Upon reading the Claimant and Defendant's Allocation Questionnaires

 

IT IS ORDERED THAT:

1. The Defendant shall by 4.00pm on 30th April 2007 file and serve a summary of the bases in law/judgements/findings of fact in the "dozen" successfully defended cases defended cases referred to in the Defendant's Allocation Questionnaire.

 

2. The file be referred back to District Judge Spencer on 1st May 2007.

 

3. Request to transfer to Salford County Court made in the Allocation Questionnaire is treated as an application and is refused.

 

4. This order was made of the District Judge's own initiative. If you object to the order you must make an application to have it set aside, varied or stayed within 7 days of receiving it.

 

I have a few questions:

 

1. Is this order good/bad/mixed news?

2. At this stage can I still provide draft orders? (I want to ask that Citi disclose the basis of their charges).

3. I realized last night that I used a loan from Citi to pay off my CitiCard account (paying off the card was a condition of the loan). Could I claim for the interest on that part of the loan used to repay the credit card?

4. If I could claim the loan interest, can I modify my claim at this stage?

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