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Bundle from VF solicitors turned up today. Will report on its contents later this evening.

 

Cheers

 

Shane

 

Hi all

 

Had a review of the VF bundle this evening and to be honest it's nothing to write home about, just another document where they go through the account history and try to justify their termination fees.

 

A couple of interesting points:-

 

1) they continue to refer to OFCOM guidance telling them they can charge early termination fees without realising that the OFCOM guidance stipulates charging for the entire contract length wouldn't in their opinion pass the 'fairness' test and therefore clauses allowing such charge would probably be unlawful

 

2) they state DCA's employed by them act in a non-harassing way however they say the methods they use are 'standard for the industry they operate in'

 

Anyway it's nothing I haven't seen before from VF, they still don't address specific points from my original POC.

 

They say a lawyer won't be present at the hearing but someone from the defendant will be. Odd but anyway bring on 3rd January 2014 so I can get clarity / closure on this unfortunate episode

 

Ta

 

Shane

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The BIG day is tomorrow....2pm!

 

I would be lying if i said i wasnt at all nervous...

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All I can say is the best of luck. Just hope you get a decent judge. It is always a lottery. :pray:


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Thanks SF

 

I've had a good review of everything this today (my POC, VF's defence / WS etc.) and am fairly confident in getting a result. I know the 'result' is largely dependent on the Judge and his / hers mood and/or interpretation of the points we've both raised.

 

Anyway win or lose, at least i'll have clarity.

 

I will update again tomorrow evening.

 

Thanks

 

Shane

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Good luck Shane....stand your ground.

 

 

Regards

 

 

Andy


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Cheers Andy, i intend to.

 

District Judge Jenkins is the man with the last word today...

 

Hopefully things go my way...i'll let you all know either way.

 

Thanks

 

Shane

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Cheers Andy, i intend to.

 

District Judge Jenkins is the man with the last word today...

 

Hopefully things go my way...i'll let you all know either way.

 

Thanks

 

Shane

 

URGENT

 

Hi all

 

Arrived at Court and met VF Barrister. She has handed me a document titled 'skeleton argument of the defendant'. She stated she intends to use this in the hearing...today being the first time I've seen this document. Should I be asking to judge to ignore it? The notice of allocation was clear in that all documents to be relied upon in court to be issued no later than 2 weeks prior to trial.

 

The document goes into detail on their proposed arguments on point of law, basically:-

 

- ETC does not put them in a better position

- they've not claimed for mobile costs or other damages within ETC

- Terms of ETC were transparent at time of sale

 

Summary. Their ETC is not disproportionately high

 

They state in relation to CRA reporting that court does not have power 'in this action' to make VF amend default. I do have that power by 'notice of correction' (tried that before, didn't work).

 

Any help here would be massively appreciated. Can't believe this has been sprung on me half hour before we see judge...surely it's not allowed.

 

I'm on mobile 3G now

 

Thanks

 

Shane

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Providing that there is nothing contained that you are unaware of I wouldn't concern yourself. Its discretionary to use a SA whether its ordered or not within the Directions.It is considered civil to serve you a copy before hand for your consideration providing you are not hand bushed with any new evidence.

 

Skeleton Arguments handed to the judge on the day of trial does not have the same effect as that presented to him with the case papers earlier pre trial

 


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A skeleton is just a summary of the points that will be raised orally in the hearing so actually it's giving you more notice of what will be said than if one wasn't given to you beforehand.

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Any update yet?

 

 

 

 

Hopefully he's in the pub celebrating. :)

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Hopefully he's in the pub celebrating. :)

 

Unfortunately not...I lost big time!

 

The judge criticised me for even bringing the claim to his attention. Apparently I should have taken heed of the ombudsman decision as correct and not taken it any further.

 

He started off the hearing by apologizing and saying he didn't have time to read my bundle / Ws as it was too long and he was busy lol.

 

Anyway apparently he has no legal power to alter a record recorded on CRA's

 

He did not believe the ETC was unfair or in breach of UTTCR

 

He did not believe the ETC went against OFCOM guidance

 

He did not believe DCA activities went against OFT guidelines.

 

He sympathised with me for DCA activities but no harassment took place in his opinion.

 

He continually credited VF counsel for 'excellent submissions' but on the flip side didn't have time to read my documents properly.

 

I feel angry and cheated to be honest as I feel large parts (important parts) have not been considered. I know I have 21 days in which to appeal but not entirely sure given this judgement that id have any chance of success.

 

I thought I had a good claim but it's basically been shot down massively today.

 

Help?

 

Thanks

 

Shane

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I would appeal on the basis he had not given you a fair chance to present him with a balanced viewpoint.... sorry to hear that but I think you should ask for a transcript of the hearing as well.

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Unfortunately not...I lost big time!

 

The judge criticised me for even bringing the claim to his attention. Apparently I should have taken heed of the ombudsman decision as correct and not taken it any further.

 

He started off the hearing by apologizing and saying he didn't have time to read my bundle / Ws as it was too long and he was busy lol.

 

Anyway apparently he has no legal power to alter a record recorded on CRA's

 

He did not believe the ETC was unfair or in breach of UTTCR

 

He did not believe the ETC went against OFCOM guidance

 

He did not believe DCA activities went against OFT guidelines.

 

He sympathised with me for DCA activities but no harassment took place in his opinion.

 

He continually credited VF counsel for 'excellent submissions' but on the flip side didn't have time to read my documents properly.

 

I feel angry and cheated to be honest as I feel large parts (important parts) have not been considered. I know I have 21 days in which to appeal but not entirely sure given this judgement that id have any chance of success.

 

I thought I had a good claim but it's basically been shot down massively today.

 

Help?

 

Thanks

 

Shane

 

 

Sorry to hear that.

 

Did you ask for permission to appeal?

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Sorry to hear that.

 

Did you ask for permission to appeal?

 

Hi

 

The judge said if I wanted to lodge an appeal i had to tell him there and then or as part of the process I'd have 21 days to lodge an official appeal. I reserved my position until I had time to consider things and get the opinions of people on here.

 

He did say I could only appeal for 2 reasons

 

1) on the basis he got something wrong

 

2) I can't remember

 

I need to be sure there is reasonable legs on this before I pursue it any further. If there is no point and a circuit judge would simply uphold what is the point?

 

On the other hand I still feel massively aggrieved that my court bundle hasn't had a proper review by a judge as this man today genuinely didn't seem interested in delving in depth of my document and see how I linked legislation to OFCOM guidance etc. I still feel I have a strong case but last thing I want or need is another 6 months to be told to essentially bugger off coz my claim has no 'legal legs'

 

Cheers

 

Shane

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Are you sure he said 21 days and not 14?

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He definitely said 21 days....

 

I'll receive a copy of his judgment in the post in the coming days so i'll type it up and post here. I guess along with everyone on here + the mods (BankFodder, AndyOrch etc.) i can make a decision as to whether i will pursue an appeal.

 

Cheers

 

Shane

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He definitely said 21 days....

 

I'll receive a copy of his judgment in the post in the coming days so i'll type it up and post here. I guess along with everyone on here + the mods (BankFodder, AndyOrch etc.) i can make a decision as to whether i will pursue an appeal.

 

Cheers

 

Shane

 

 

Sorry yeah misread your post. If the Judge makes no order regarding the appeal you have 21 days to make one (CPR 52.4).

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Message left for andyorch..

 

Sorry to hear this, Shane. It does seem very onesided if your submissions werent read !!


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Very harsh i think, i knew within 5 minutes he wasn't going to award me anything and was batting for the Defendant...i lost count of how many times he praised their barrister for their submissions!!

 

The more i think about it, the more i am inclined to appeal the judgement made today...i'll sleep on it for a few nights.

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Hi Shane

 

 

Deeply disappointed it didn't go your way...the 2 grounds when considering any appeal are if the court made a mistake in law or there was a serious irregularity in the proceedings..

 

 

I personally would give this great thought before making a decision ...is it worth the further expense and your time and stress and will success actually out weigh the effort?

 

 

Regards

 

 

Andy


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Hi Shane

 

 

Deeply disappointed it didn't go your way...the 2 grounds when considering any appeal are if the court made a mistake in law or there was a serious irregularity in the proceedings..

 

 

I personally would give this great thought before making a decision ...is it worth the further expense and your time and stress and will success actually out weigh the effort?

 

 

Regards

 

 

Andy

 

That's the debate I'm having with myself Andy. The Default is 3 years old now and isn't really affecting my 'creditworthiness' as it was at the start of the process (I know because first direct (my bank) were happy to lend me money for a new car and have given me access to a high limit, low APR credit card). I'm yet to see what if any effect it will have on a mortgage application.

 

To be honest I vaguely understand how things work with courts, barristers etc...I'm sure they all have gin and tonics after each day together so appealing probably has no legs and I am edging towards the fact that it's not worth my time or effort.

 

I know Vodafone have wronged me, I know that judge yesterday didn't give a stuff about my claim because he had a case of 'end of day syndrome' so what's the point in carrying on. They can all carry on in their corrupt daily business as far as I am concerned.

 

Rant over lol.

 

Cheers

 

Shane

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Very true and I would totally agree.....If VODAFONE wish to treat their customers in this way then the best response is to never spend another penny with them and hope the public see forums like this.

 

 

Bad publicity is far more effective than legal success in many cases.

 

 

Regards

 

 

Andy


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Very true and I would totally agree.....If VODAFONE wish to treat their customers in this way then the best response is to never spend another penny with them and hope the public see forums like this.

 

 

Bad publicity is far more effective than legal success in many cases.

 

 

Regards

 

 

Andy

 

They'll never get a penny of my money again. Ill rejoice when the day comes that they've gone into administration or something similar.

 

What goes around comes around so I really sincerely hope one of the probably 1000's of customer complaints currently on going that they are able to take it the full way and have them fined heavily! Nothing would make me more happier.

 

I think I've decided not to appeal, I have more important things to focus on (career, family) so won't waste more time on it. I think I will write a letter of complaint to the court to air my views on the tardy (at best) service I received from the judge in regards my bundle and overall claim. That will help me get things off my chest in a non-legal way : )

 

Cheers

 

Shane

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Shane that is a great idea to make a complaint to the court.


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Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

 

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2: Take back control of your finances -

Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors?

Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt

Read Here

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Please Read

 

 

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2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

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Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

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