Nationwide Mortgage MPPI Aviva & Advisor

[Crapstone]

I was sold PPI with Norwich Union (Aviva) in 1997 by a broker alongside taking out a mortgage with Nationwide.

 

Not knowing much about it at the time we were told it was a good product to have. So after looking into it now it seems not, as it would not have paid out after age 60 and would have ended before the full mortgage date. It doesn't cover self-employment and we weren't told that any claim would reduce state benefits or that it didn't cover any existing medical conditions. I can't remember ever receiving a copy of the original policy or a booklet at the time.

 

I now have a copy of the original and it's pretty clear that it would not have paid out anything if a claim was raised. A claim was made years ago and they did pay out 1 months insurance although I believe that would have been an error. The payment was deducted from benefits as 'income' so was in fact useless.

 

I have searched around and because it was sold by a broker, and not by the company (Aviva) or with the mortgage itself it would appear that I have to claim against them (the broker). I've managed to locate the broker and, although I thought at the time he was independent and working for himself, he has been employed by a larger company since 1994.

 

I've looked around on Moneysavingexpert and there seems a lot of talk that you can't really go after brokers before 2005 when they were regulated and anyone that says they were mis-sold in this way are told that they don't have much of a case.

 

Surely after paying for 15 years on something that is sold as being of benefit but is useless would entitle you to at least the premiums back?

 

Has anyone heard of any success in cases like this and is it worth asking for a refund or pursuing a case against the broker?

 

Thanks.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Crapstone

[dx100uk]

your target is nationwide

 

end off

 

go get 'em

 

dx

[Crapstone]

Thanks dx but the broker sold it as a separate part and there is no tie between Nationwide

and Norwich Union that I know of, unless it was indeed part of their product that I don't know about?

 

I have no idea if it was part of a package or if he applied to Norwich Union after.

 

All I know is that it started on the day of the mortgage and policy refers to the mortgage by nature but not by a company name (ie. Nationwide).

 

It also doesn't say if it's transferable but it does say that it ends when the mortgage ends, at age 60, upon repossession proceedings

(it's not specific if that means initial ones, suspended repossession or eviction), plus a few other things and whichever is the sooner.

 

We aren't with Nationwide anymore and haven't been since 2003 but kept this policy running as we thought it would actually provide cover.

 

The header of the policy is Royal Insurance and the the sub-header is Security Insurance Group. It refers to a Master Policy and a number?

 

Under the Definitions it gives the term Agreement as: "means the mortgage agreement between you and the lender under which You are required to make monthly payments to the lender and in relation to which you insured under the Master Policy."

 

It's all a bit confusing to say the least! I have no idea what Master Policy they mean as all we have is one A4 double-sided sheet of paper!

Edited April 27, 2012 by Crapstone

[dx100uk]

who were you paying the money for the PPI premuims too?

 

dx

[Crapstone]

The money was going to Norwich Union and now Aviva.

[Crapstone]

I've just had a quick search and it does look as though Nationwide did sell PPI through Norwich Union and I guess the broker would have made more of a profit doing it that way than through an untied sale?

[dx100uk]

are you saying you had TWO mortgage payment DD's

 

me thinks not.

 

dx

[Crapstone]

No. One was for the mortgage payment and other for PPI on the mortgage to Norwich Union originally. Norwich Union were then taken over by Aviva. The name on the DD is neither of them and comes under the underwriters name but ultimately the company overseeing it is Aviva.

 

I'm just looking at a document online http://www.competition-commission.org.uk/assets/competitioncommission/docs/pdf/non-inquiry/rep_pub/reports/2009/fulltext/542_2_7.pdf that says that NU didn't sell PPI alone but only did it through mortgage lenders at the time although they did sell MPPI as a stand alone product between 2002-2004. This was back in 97 so I guess it must have been taken out with the mortgage then.

Edited April 28, 2012 by Crapstone
Amended to show DD name.

[Crapstone]

Just to clarify. A broker arranged the mortgage and PPI. The mortgage was DD with Nationwide and the PPI DD was with NU. It wasn't one combined payment. We remortgaged in 2003 but kept the NU DD. We thought it was an Income Replacement Plan and not something connected directly to the mortgage. It now looks like it was part of the mortgage and the broker just ticked the PPI box.

[Crapstone]

It seems I'm not losing my marbles and neither are a lot of people that are in the same position on Moneysavingexpert. It seems people are being told ( by people that say they have financial connections) that they can only claim if they have a combined payment such as with a credit card or PPI added to a loan. And if it was sold by a broker they assume it to be 2 unassociated products if they are are not under one named payment. However:

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2012/apr/13/legal-general-mortgage-ppi-policy

 

So it does seem that one hand doesn't know what the other is doing and they can both be from the same originator. No proof it was sold by a broker but it does show that the mortgage provider and the insurer were both unaware of the position and there would have been 2 different DD's had the mortgage gone ahead. And it does seem to suggest that you can claim payments back at the very least.

Edited April 28, 2012 by Crapstone

[Crapstone]

There is also another definition under Monthly Payments that states:

 

"Monthly payments means the amount of the payment due to the lender each month under the original terms of the Agreement together with any monthly premium for an endowment or other life insurance policy which is related to the Agreement"

 

'The Agreement' seems to infer only one and that would be with Nationwide under the 'original terms'.

 

Under the Termination of Individual Insurance.

 

"The insurance provided will automatically terminate on which ever is the first to occur"

 

(a) The date on which all amounts due to the lender under the Agreement have been or are due to be paid or the date which the Agreement is terminated for whatever reason.

 

At the bottom of the page it says," you must notify Security Insurance in writing if Your mortgage arrangements change or if You wish to change the terms of Your cover."

 

All small print, but I guess that seals it that it was sold for Nationwide. And if it automatically terminates then why are they still taking the money 9 years on?

 

Sorry for the continual posts but if dx hadn't have mentioned that Nationwide were perhaps a port of call I wouldn't have looked into their involvement. I was just thinking perhaps the broker or Aviva were the first stop. Thanks dx you prompted me to look a little deeper.

Edited April 28, 2012 by Crapstone

[dx100uk]

not in the least

 

very good background info.

 

as for taking it for 9yrs more ...cheeky to say the least!

 

dx

[Crapstone]

As far as I can see it's undeniable that they owe us at least the last 9 years as it became more worthless than it was in the first place when the Nationwide mortgage ended.

 

I just have to get a few more bits together and I can't see any reason why this claim shouldn't succeed.

 

The name on the DD is Wessex, which seems to be who Aviva have off-loaded all the old NU insurance to and it's on the envelopes that contain Aviva headed letters.

Edited April 29, 2012 by Crapstone

[Crapstone]

Looking back through everything, it seems the claim that was made after we remortgaged.

 

So they shouldn't have paid out as

 

A, we didn't have the original mortgage and

B, because he hadn't been employed for 12 months continously with the same employer as stipulated in the contract and was also self-employed.

All the details asked for were given correctly at the time so they have certainly made an error and gone against their own contract wording.

 

I've checked and all payments are and have been made by DD and not Standing Order so I guess that would mean it's covered by the DD guarantee also?

 

'If an error is made in the payment of your Direct Debit, by (insert your organisation name) or your bank or building society, you are entitled to a full and immediate refund of the amount paid from your bank or building society. '

 

Any thoughts?

[dx100uk]

urm....

 

sadly i think its up to the punter to cancel DD's

unless the premium changes

then they must write and advise

 

so i dontthink thats a route

 

howevr, i'm confident you'll get it all back

 

dx

[Crapstone]

It was just a thought, a hopeless one, but still worth an ask.

 

Wessex have been informed and I'm still waiting for their response which was supposed to be 2 - 3 days but is way beyond that now. Not for a claim, just background on the account to chase it down from there.

 

The standard form has been sent off to Nationwide so I just have to sit and wait the outcome.

[Crapstone]

Now I'm even more confused!

 

The original policy appears to be called Security Insurance Limited ('96), underwritten by Royal Insurance.

 

Very shortly after ('98) they were headed as Royal & Sun Alliance and under Norwich Union.

 

So was this a separate policy or were Nationwide using them then?

 

They changed the terms after the policy was purchased and changed it from age 60 to 65

but that's still no good to us now as it's 2 years under the mortgage redemption time even if it was changed to the current mortgage.

 

It may be Aviva that I need to contact as their Wessex admin. team don't hold any records going back that far,

although they did send a copy of the original policy t&c's.

 

Why can't anything be straightforward?

[dx100uk]

see what NW have to say

 

dx

[Crapstone]

Short version.

 

Took out a mortgage with Nationwide in 1997 using an IFA.

Recommended to take out insuranceI with a company now owned by Aviva.

 

 

It does not cover what we need and was linked to that mortgage in 1997. It was still being paid until last month and the mortgage was changed in 2003. At the time we had no idea it was linked to the mortgage and thought it was an income protection plan that would benefit us but it doesn't cover any self-employment and the broker was told that was the future plan and stability in work wasn't guarenteed.

[dx100uk]

get reclaiming!!

 

looks like you're in for a windfall

 

dx

[Crapstone]

I've had a response telling me that the IFA that sold the product is purely responsible as they hold no original records for it.

 

I can understand that but they have still had the benefit of the money and they have been taking it since the mortgage was changed in 2003

and the insurance is invalid due to self-employment from that date.

 

It was taken out in 1997 and thought to be an income plan and not something directly linked to the mortgage we had at that time.

 

Shouldn't they share responsibility as they paid him in the first place and it's only in the past few months we've been sent the info?

 

For years Aviva have sent very little apart from trying to put the price up.

I can't recall getting anything much since it was taken out but now they are sending out plenty of letters to make up for it.

 

Why should the IFA pay up entirely when the company has been told that was has been paid to them is against the policy

and it can't be claimed upon?

'We didn't know ' doesn't cut it.

 

I've been paying you for something entirely useless,

and you haven't kept on top of it,

so how about refunding the money Aviva had the benefit of?

[ims21]

Two threads merged

[ims21]

So were you paying Aviva?

[dx100uk]

were there two sep DD's being taken

one for mortgage

and

one for PPI?

 

dx

[Dotty50]

Hi Crapstone, what did the policy cover you for when you took it out?

 

Many people take out polices, which are probably fine at the time but personal circumstances change over the years and these changes are never advised to the insurance company in order to amend the cover, if this is an option.