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Hi all,

This is my first post so please bare with me.

Had a visit on monday from a rossenadales bailif at my business adress which is a limited company,

the ccj was issued to myself at my home adress and relates to a debt when i was a sole trader prior to starting my above limited company. Rossendales have not caught me in at home and have traced me to my new business adress, and have now put my ltd company adress onto their paperwork, but i have had no notification of this from the court. Can they do this????

 

Thanks all for your help

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If you were a Sole Trader when the debt was incurred, it is personal to you, as a Sole Trader has unlimited liability for debt. The numpty bailiff you describe in your post has acted ultra vires and probably laid not only himself and Rossendales open to legal action, but the alleged creditor involved, too. And what is a certificated bailiff doing enforcing a CCJ? That is normally undertaken by HMCTS Court Bailiffs.

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Thanks old bill,

I did tell the bailif that i thought that he could not enforce the ccj at the ltd companies premises but he just kept saying that the debt had been transfered and showing me the rossendales paperwork with the business adress on it, but not a new court order. I think i am right when i say that all equipment is owned by the limited company and not me personaly is this correct so they cant levy anything owned by the limited company. Is this a serious breach of their powers and what do you think i should do next, as he just walked in to the workshop by the time i removed him he had had a chance to look around a bit. When i returned there was a levy form through the door but liset was "" banding type machine and various joinery equipment"" if i understand coorectly this is an invalid levy as you cannot list various or miscelaneous???

Very Gratefull for your help.

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Thanks old bill,

I did tell the bailif that i thought that he could not enforce the ccj at the ltd companies premises but he just kept saying that the debt had been transfered and showing me the rossendales paperwork with the business adress on it, but not a new court order. I think i am right when i say that all equipment is owned by the limited company and not me personaly is this correct so they cant levy anything owned by the limited company. Is this a serious breach of their powers and what do you think i should do next, as he just walked in to the workshop by the time i removed him he had had a chance to look around a bit. When i returned there was a levy form through the door but liset was "" banding type machine and various joinery equipment"" if i understand coorectly this is an invalid levy as you cannot list various or miscelaneous???

Very Gratefull for your help.

I would say the levy is invalid, and they just can't data cleanse an address without the creditor, going back to court, but others will know more. May be time for a Formal Complaint if it is business rates to the head of Revenues of the council, copied to CEO, Leader and MP, as dossendales have a habit of trying to wing it and make it up as they go along, with a council believing the sun shines forth from the bailiffs posterior.


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Having looked at your second post, Welshwizard, I have to agree with both yourself and Brassnecked in that the bailiff has an invalid and, possibly, an unlawful levy. As you have stated that the liability was incurred when you were a sole trader and the equipment belongs to the limited company, the bailiff cannot levy on or seize the company's property as it is classed as third-party property. If he tries to seize it, he will be liable to prosecution for Theft.

 

In a case such as this, data cleansing of the warrant would render it invalid and both Rossendales and the creditor liable to prosecution as the judgement is against you, personally, not the limited company. The creditor cannot even get the judgement debtor's details changed as if the CCJ pre-dates the date of incorporation of the limited company, no court will entertain it. Even the courts cannot apply the law retrospectively.

 

As a matter of interest, who is the creditor and what is the judgement for, please?

Edited by old bill

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Is this Rossendales acting as High Court Enforcement Officers? Do they have a Writ of FiFa?


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As stated previously, if Rossendales and/or the Original Creditor have altered the details on the warrant or writ and the date of judgement pre-dates the date of incorporation of the limited company, both the Original Creditor and Rossendales will be in serious trouble. The only way they could transfer the judgement to the limited company is by deliberately misleading the court, i.e. by committing perjury. Whether this Rossendales' employee is a Certificated Bailiff or HCEO, they may not be such for much longer if it is established they were party to or had knowledge of an attempt to mislead a court of law.

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He does not need to alter the Writ as he may attend any address that he has been provided with where the debtor may be found. In this case however he may only seize or remove those goods that are owned by the debtor personally and not those of the Ltd Co, it could be that the OP still personally owns his car for example and if that is the case then the vehicle needs to be kept out of the way. Again he will be working on the premise the OP knows no better and the threat of seizure of his goods will force him to cough up. I assume the Ltd Co was made as a separate entity to the sole trader and not a continuation.


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If an HCEO has levied upon Third Party goods when enforcing a writ of fi fa for an individual, the CORRECT procedure is for the THIRD PARTY (ie the Limited Company) to email or fax a Third Party Claim over to Rossendlaes Ltd. This is provided for under RSC Order 17 (Rule 2). I can pushed for time right now but should be able to provide a rough draft for later.

 

PS: If I forget....would somebody mind sending me a PM

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He does not need to alter the Writ as he may attend any address that he has been provided with where the debtor may be found. In this case however he may only seize or remove those goods that are owned by the debtor personally and not those of the Ltd Co, it could be that the OP still personally owns his car for example and if that is the case then the vehicle needs to be kept out of the way. Again he will be working on the premise the OP knows no better and the threat of seizure of his goods will force him to cough up. I assume the Ltd Co was made as a separate entity to the sole trader and not a continuation.

 

Agreed. However, as we all know by now, Rossendales aren't exactly known for compliance with the law.

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so much advice many thanks all have been at work so have just been reading comments will try and answer some questions.

Yes the limited company was set up as a different entity to my sole trader business, and all machinary and the vehicle is registered to the limited company and has all been logged into the company accounts as assets of the company.

The debt is to screwfix direct i did make an offer of payment at the time prior to them taking the matter further but they were not happy, eventhough my troubles were due to my partner having a heart attack and having to give up her job, which peeved me off a bit and is why i ignored them after that, obviously a bad idea though hence where we are now.

I did explain this also to the kind bailif on monday and upon showing his sympathetic side his answer was "why dont you just pay the debt and i will leave you alone" at this point i showed him the door.

My big issue is that i know have a retail outlet point at the workshop which is open to the public which i have closed this week due to the worry of this "person?" calling back whilst i have customers, is there any way i can stop this happening???

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He may only seize the goods of the debtor. As you are trading as a Ltd Co everything belongs to that Ltd Co and not to you personally so really you should have no problems opening your public side. Did he leave you any paperwork before he left, if so what? Did he make a levy on any goods, if so what?


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ploddertom,

 

Many thanks.

He left a sheet of paper i think the important information is no 55 notice of seizure, however no walking possesion order.

list of seized goods:

saw banding machine

joinery equipment various

 

debt and costs:

judgement debt £529.54

judgement costs/ cost of execution/interest £283.47

hceo fees £411.75

total £1224.76

 

Adress on the sheet of paper wrong, got next doors farm address on it.!!!

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Tomtubby has outlined what needs to be done in Post 10 as I imagine these goods are the property of your Ltd Co. You have just 5 days to do this, did you advise at the time they were not your personal property? Do you have receipts etc which prove who they belong to? You say above "joinery equipment various", is this what it actually says?


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Yes ploddertom did tell him that the property all belongs to the ltd company, and it does say" joinery equipment various" , as with us all have some receipts but not for everything. Could you help or point me in the right direction with wording for e mail to rossendales please.

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As with all our operations we are committed to taking a fair, sensitive and ethical approach to enforcing judgments. We provide a fair and balanced service to both creditors and debtors whilst also acknowledging our responsibility to the courts as High Court Enforcement Officers.

 

This is a quote on Rossendales web site does anyone agree with this statement!!!

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Yes ploddertom did tell him that the property all belongs to the ltd company, and it does say" joinery equipment various" , - I would argue this part of his levy is invalid as it fails to address just what he is attempting to seize and could just as easily be a pencil and plumb line - as with us all have some receipts but not for everything. Could you help or point me in the right direction with wording for e mail to rossendales please.

 

For the Band saw - do you have more than one at all - you will need to write to them claiming ownership for your Ltd Co and must enclose some form of proof of this. On top of this you should possibly apply for a Variation Order whereby a set amount can be paid to the Claimant each month. Second and most important is to apply for a Stay of Execution against the HCEO on the grounds that:

a - you cannot afford the fees demanded

b - the HCEO has already seized goods belonging to a third party and is threatening to remove and sell them

c - pending determination of a Variation Order

 

Variation Order is applied for on Form N245 - cost £45, the Stay is applied for on Form N244 - cost £80, if on a low wage or certain Benefits you may qualify to have the fees waived, see Forms Ex160a & c for details. All forms available from HMCTS website.


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