probate help please £17,500

[paulhis7]

Hello please can someone advise me

My father’s cousin has died and left my father £17,500

All has been sorted out in the bank but !

Now the bank has told my father he needs a probate why ?

There was NO WILL but he left a note stating my father is next of kin

Someone from the probate phoned my father asking if his cousin had any relatives

My father said no

But our deceased cousin has 2 half brothers they never got on

They had not spoken or seen each other for over 60 years and hated one another

My father was very close to his cousin

This probate will they do a search for these half brothers

Should my father tell the probate about them ?

Thank you Paul

Edited November 23, 2012 by paulhis7

[honeybee13]

Hello and welcome to CAG.

 

Could you tell us what the bank have done so far please about sorting this?

 

And did the cousin leave a will?

 

My best, HB

[Guest]

honeybee

op says no will, therefore would be in,testate rules.

Edited November 23, 2012 by Ford

[honeybee13]

Good point Ford, I read that and then it slipped my mind. Thank you.

 

In that case, is your father the only surviving blood relative please, Paul? I stand to be corrected about step relatives because I don't know if they can inherit under intestacy rules.

 

HB

[Guest]

'relations by marriage' can't inherit.

some brief cab info:

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/relationships_e/relationships_death_and_wills_e/who_can_inherit_if_there_is_no_will___the_rules_of_intestacy.htm

[honeybee13]

Good spot, thank you. All we need is the OP now.

 

HB

[Guest]

All we need is the OP now.

 

HB

 

[paulhis7]

hello all

and thanks for your reply's

apparently all is sorted at the bank they are happy with everything then told my father he had to have this probate

why ?

and yes my farther is the last living relative

the only problem is my cousin who has died had these 2 half brothers

our cousin and the stepbrothers had the same mother but different farther

the half brothers are the only ones we know of

who had not seen each other for some 60 years and hated one another

why we will never know !

thanks Paul

what should my father do ?

Edited November 23, 2012 by paulhis7

[Bombaymix]

"step"brothers? Or "half"brothers?

If it's how you describe (same mother - different father) I'm sure it's half brothers.

[paulhis7]

oh so sorry

your right half brothers

you can tell i`m getting old !!!

sorry about the confusion

thanks paul

[honeybee13]

Hello there.

 

I'm not sure what document your cousin left, but I feel that if it's not acceptable as a will then the intestacy rules will apply. Here's a link to the probate office online calculator for who inherits if there is no legal will. It might help.

 

https://www.gov.uk/inherits-someone-dies-without-will/y

 

HB

[BankFodder]

A mere note saying that your father is next of kin will not have any effect - unless it was signed by two witnesses - in which case the note will have the status of a will.

 

So I'm afraid that the money will be distributed according to the rules on intestacy. If there are other cousins then they may take a share - hated or no.

[honeybee13]

...and here's some more about probate. I think you might need to see the CAB if you're still confused. I stand to be corrected, but I understood that in most cases assets left by a deceased person needs to be approved by the Probate Office. The info below shows a couple of exemptions.

 

 

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Relationships

 

 

• Death and wills
  
  • What to do after a death
    
  • Dealing with the financial affairs of someone who has died
    
  • Wills
    
  • Who can inherit if there is no will – the rules of intestacy
    

 

 

 

 

 

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Dealing with the financial affairs of someone who has died

 

 

• How to deal with the property of a person who has died
  
• What does the executor or administrator do
  
• Tax and benefits
  
• Debts
  
• Probate and letters of administration
  
• Jointly-owned property
  
• If the amount of money is small
  
• Do you need a solicitor
  
• How long does it take to get probate or letters of administration
  
• How to apply for probate or letters of administration
  
• Inheritance tax
  
• After probate or letters of administration has been granted
  
• If you are an executor and you do not wish to act
  
• Further help
  

How to deal with the property of a person who has died

 

Everything owned by a person who has died is known as their estate. The estate may be made up of:

 

• money, both cash and money in a bank or building society account. This could include money paid out on a life insurance policy
  
• money owed to the person who has died
  
• shares
  
• property, for example, their home
  
• personal possessions, for example, their car or jewellery.
  

If the person who died owes money to other people, for example, on a credit card, for fuel, for rent or a mortgage, this comes out of the estate.

The estate of the person who has died is usually passed to surviving relatives and friends, either according to instructions in the will, or if the person dies without leaving a will, according to certain legal rules called the rules of intestacy.

For information about wills, see Wills.

For information about the rules of intestacy, see Who can inherit if there is no will – the rules of intestacy.

The person dealing with the estate of the person who has died is called an executor or an administrator. An executor is someone who is named in the will as responsible for dealing with the estate. An executor may have to apply for a special legal authority before they can deal with the estate. This is called probate.

An administrator is someone who is responsible for dealing with an estate under certain circumstances, for example, if there is no will or the named executors aren't willing to act. An administrator has to apply for letters of administration before they can deal with an estate.

Although there are some exceptions, it is usually against the law for you to start sharing out the estate or to get money from the estate, until you have probate or letters of administration.

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What does the executor or administrator do

 

The executor or administrator (also called the personal representative) takes responsibility for dealing with all of the estate. This involves:

 

• finding all the financial documentation belonging to the person who died
  
• sending a copy of the death certificate to the organisations that hold the money of the person who has died. Ask them for confirmation of the value of the money held at the date of death and the amount of income received during the last tax year up to the date of death. Also ask them to freeze the bank accounts so no one can take money out without the correct legal authority
  
• opening a bank account on behalf of the estate
  
• finding out details of money owed to the estate
  
• finding out details of money owed by the person who has died
  
• preparing a detailed list of the property, money and possessions and debts in the estate
  
• working out the amount of inheritance tax due and arranging to pay it
  
• preparing and sending off the documents required by the probate registry and HM Revenue and Customs
  
• when probate or letters of administration has been granted, collecting in money belonging to the estate from banks, insurance companies, pension funds and building societies
  
• paying debts, expenses and fees, such as solicitors' fees and probate fees
  
• sharing out the estate, as set out in the will or according to the rules of intestacy.
  

If it appears that there are not enough assets in the estate to cover outstanding tax, expenses, bills and other liabilities, you should seek the advice of a solicitor. Administering an insolvent estate can be complicated.

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Tax and benefits

 

When someone dies, it's important to sort out their benefits, tax and National Insurance as soon as possible. There may be tax to pay, or their estate might be owed some tax back.

You need to tell the tax office, and each government office that was paying benefits to the person who has died, about their death. You need to do this as soon as possible after the death.

Depending where the person who has died was living, you may be able to tell several government services about the death in one contact by using the Tell Us Once Service. For more information about this service, see What to do after a death.

If you need to report the death to the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP), you can telephone the DWP Bereavement Service. They can deal with all the DWP benefits that were being paid to the person who died. They can also check whether the next of kin is entitled to any benefits. For more information about this service, see What to do after a death.

You can find information about what to do about tax and benefits on the HMRC website at: www.hmrc.gov.uk.

If you're the executor or administrator of someone's will, you'll need to sort out their tax after they've died. You can find information about how to do this on the Directgov website at: www.direct.gov.uk. This includes information about how to get tax money back, if it's due.

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Debts

 

The person who has died may have left debts, for example, an overdraft on their account or a credit agreement that has not been paid off. When someone dies you should always try to tell all their creditors.

In general, if there is not enough money in the estate of the person who has died to pay their debts their creditors cannot recover the amount still owed from anyone else, including that person's surviving relatives. You should check whether that person had any kind of insurance policy that would pay off any of their debts on their death, for example, a payment protection insurance policy taken out at the same time as a loan.

In some cases the debt may have been a joint one, for example, an overdraft on a joint account or an amount owed on a credit agreement taken out in joint names. If this is the case, the debt can still be recovered from the surviving person. In addition, if you lived with someone who has died you may still be liable for debts that relate to the property, such as council tax or water bills.

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Probate and letters of administration

 

Probate

 

If you are named in someone's will as an executor, you may have to apply for probate. This is a legal document which gives you the authority to share out the estate of the person who has died according to the instructions in the will. You do not always need probate to be able to deal with the estate.

If you have been named in a will as an executor, you don't have to act if you don't want to.

Letters of administration

 

In some circumstances, someone who wants to deal with the estate of someone who has died will have to apply for letters of administration, rather than probate. This person is called an administrator. You have to apply for letters of administration if:

 

• there is no will
  
• a will is not valid
  
• there are no executors named in the will
  
• the executors cannot or are unwilling to act.
  

There are strict rules about who can be an administrator. If there is a valid will, you can apply for letters of administration if:

 

• the person who died left all of their estate to you in the will, and
  
• the executors are not named, or cannot or are unwilling to act.
  

If there is no valid will, and you are the next-of-kin, you can apply to be an administrator in the following order of priority:

 

1. you are the married partner or civil partner of the person who has died
   
2. you are the child of the person who has died
   
3. you are the grandchild of the person who has died
   
4. you are the parent of the person who has died
   
5. you are the brother or sister of the person who has died
   
6. you are the nephew or niece of the person who has died
   
7. you are another relative of the person who has died.
   

An unmarried partner, or same-sex partner who has not registered a civil partnership and who has not been named in a will as an executor will not usually be able to act as an administrator.

You do not always need letters of administration to be able to deal with the estate of someone who has died.

Do you always need probate or letters of administration

 

You usually need probate or letters of administration to deal with an estate if it includes property such as a flat or a house. Otherwise, you may not need probate or letters of administration if:

 

• the estate is just made up of cash (that is, bank notes and coins) and personal possessions such as a car, furniture, and jewellery
  
• all the property in the estate is owned as beneficial joint tenants This property automatically becomes wholly owned by the other owner
  
• you had a joint bank account
  
• the amount of money is small
  
• you discover that the estate is insolvent, that is, there is not enough money in the estate to pay all the debts, taxes and expenses
  
• there are certain life insurance policies and pension benefits in the estate.
  

[paulhis7]

sound very confusing

why do you need probate if all is sorted at the bank

is the bank selling us something we don't need

my father had a call from probate today stating they will send forms out

to fill in

also they said they will post second class up to 10 days they say

why the long wait

this probate i assume is a solicitor ?

thanks paul

[zydeco]

hi Paul, can't help with the technicalities but Probate is basically the procedure you have to go through to administrate a persons estate. ie. make sure all the bills are paid and the estate, (money, property etc.) goes to who is entitled to it.

 

Administration is another word for it.

 

The bank won't release funds without the authority of a "Grant of administration" which is probably what the paperwork from the Probate Registry is for.

 

I assume that the bank notified them.

 

Honeybee has given you some links to read but I know it can be a bit confusing, (went through this 12 years ago).

Here's another one.

https://www.gov.uk/wills-probate-inheritance/overview

[honeybee13]

Hello again.

 

I agree with zydeco, probate is normal. What I don't understand is who you're dealing with. Have you had any letters?

 

And when you say things are 'sorted' at the bank, I'm not sure what you mean.

 

You don't need a solicitor or a bank's probate department to ask for Letters of Administration, which is the name for probate when there's no will. I know people who have sorted out probate themselves directly with the local Probate Office.

 

My understanding is that the Probate Office is there to make sure that money goes to the right people and to see any inheritance tax that is due is paid before the money is released. They're not to know whether this money in the bank is all the cousin left or if there are other assets.

 

HB

[paulhis7]

hello all

thanks for replys

inheritance tax this is new will we have to pay tax as no one told us about this !

any idea how long will this take as i hear that some will prolong this to get more money from you !

and yes the bank said we had to get probate

thanks paul

[honeybee13]

Hello again Paul.

 

I saw a buddy who used to be a wills and probate lawyer today and mentioned this. They agreed that every estate needs to go through the probate process, even if there is no tax to pay.

 

Who is administering the estate please?

 

This person will be responsible for distributing the assets according to the intestacy rules as there is no will. They will have to take account of the half brothers of your uncle [and any other qualifying blood relatives if there are any] or I believe they can be sued by someone who qualified to inherit part of the estate but didn't.

 

Someone from the probate phoned my father asking if his cousin had any relatives

My father said no

But our deceased cousin has 2 half brothers they never got on

They had not spoken or seen each other for over 60 years and hated one another

My father was very close to his cousin

This probate will they do a search for these half brothers

Should my father tell the probate about them ?

 

I hadn't noticed this part of your first post before. I think if your father fails to declare relatives who are potential beneficiaries, I can only think this will end badly for him.

 

Are you able to tell us who is administrator of the estate please as I said above? This might make the way forward a bit clearer.

 

 

HB

[Guest]

I hadn't noticed this part of your first post before

hb

think it said stepbro's before, but was amended since following #9, #10?

Edited November 26, 2012 by Ford

[Guest]

..

I do not want a fight but for the reference of any future reader is the estate is minimal (under5K I think) there is no need to go through the legal process...

 

isn't OP re at least 17.5k? anyway, the 5k threshold you mention is re the probate fee? where if below, no fee required. but probate still required.

Edited November 26, 2012 by Ford

[paulhis7]

hello all

thanks again for your kind help

 

administrator i`m now lost no idea !

my father has gone to the bank filled out all the forms

and that's it

 

then he was told to have this probate by the bank

awaiting letter from probate may take up to 10 days for letter they sent it second class post

 

our cousin who died left a letter with his neighbour stating my father is next of kin

this kind neighbour was my cousin appointee he did everything for our cousin

 

this letter was signed in the bank by my cousin and this neighbour

but all the affair's are now at the bank and is out of this neighbours hands

as for a administrator no one has said anything to us about this we are non the wiser !

 

i know this letter is not a will but the bank are happy with my father as next of kin

we phoned the neighbour this letter is at the bank

 

thank you Paul

 

PS gets more complicated every day what next ? ( BIG THANK YOU TOO ALL FOR YOUR HELP IN THIS MATTER

Edited November 26, 2012 by honeybee13
Editing in some paragraphs for easier reading.

[honeybee13]

hello all

thanks again for your kind help

 

administrator i`m now lost no idea !

my father has gone to the bank filled out all the forms

and that's it

 

Which forms please? For the bank or the Probate Office?

 

then he was told to have this probate by the bank

awaiting letter from probate may take up to 10 days for letter they sent it second class post

 

Is this the Probate Office please?

 

our cousin who died left a letter with his neighbour stating my father is next of kin

this kind neighbour was my cousin appointee he did everything for our cousin

 

What type of appointee please?

 

this letter was signed in the bank by my cousin and this neighbour

but all the affair's are now at the bank and is out of this neighbours hands

as for a administrator no one has said anything to us about this we are non the wiser !

 

The person who winds up an estate is called an executor if there's a will and an administrator if there isn't a will.

 

i know this letter is not a will but the bank are happy with my father as next of kin

we phoned the neighbour this letter is at the bank

 

thank you Paul

 

PS gets more complicated every day what next ? ( BIG THANK YOU TOO ALL FOR YOUR HELP IN THIS MATTER

 

I've put a few questions into your post. I still think there's a difference between your father being next of kin and being the only beneficiary. If there is no valid will, then my understanding is that the intestacy rules would have to be followed, including the two half-cousins that he hated.

 

This is the problem when people don't write wills; the money doesn't always go where they want it to.

 

HB

[Guest]

further on in that link re the probate fee re 5k. 'probate' still required. if applying.

https://www.gov.uk/wills-probate-inheritance/applying-for-a-grant-of-representation

[honeybee13]

Excellent link, Ford.

 

HB

[zydeco]

our cousin who died left a letter with his neighbour stating my father is next of kin

this kind neighbour was my cousin appointee he did everything for our cousin this letter was signed in the bank by my cousin and this neighbour

but all the affair's are now at the bank and is out of this neighbours hands

Well it might not be a will drawn up by a solicitor but it's the next best thing and if signed in the bank I assume a bank official signed it as well so there you go, two witnesses to a "last request" document.

 

The bank should have a copy as well which could be why they're dealing with it?